If I could have only one feature....

[bbulkow]

Reading back at what you wrote, I’m a little confused about your statement about you turning it off and it turns itself back on.

What button exactly are you hitting to turn it off?

I took a couple pics. You should hit this button on the top left that looks like a power button-

And then it should look like this-

Is that what you’re doing and then somehow it’s turning itself back on?

I do know it will periodically bring outside air in (so you don’t suffocate from carbon dioxide), but the a/c itself shouldn’t be running, just the fan.

No, I am not turning the entire system off, because I want the fan, and I would like the system to manage the fan to bring in fresh air. I am turning off the AC button on the front screen. And it turns back on. I also turn off the heat button, and it turns itself back on.

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[bbulkow]

I'm pretty sure there's no ECO mode because the HVAC is already programmed to be as efficient as it can be while still meeting temperature and humidity requirements. If you want it to be more efficient, leave it in AUTO and select a more efficient temperature or reduce blower speed (e.g. use AUTO 1 instead of AUTO 3).

A/C compressor runs to keep the air dehumidified, this is important to prevent window fogging. The efficient strategy also involves automatically opening and closing the outside air damper to reduce energy usage. Your inputs are considered, but overridden if the humidity gets too high or if too many minutes pass without fresh air (so passengers don't asphyxiate). The engineers won't let you select a setting that could compromise safety.

I'd also like to make the point that just because heat or A/C is on doesn't mean those are using a lot of electricity. In a lot of cases, the heat and A/C are run at very low levels that wouldn't really impact range that much. For example, in the summer the heat and A/C will run together to dehumidify the air, the heat used is only a small amount (less than 1 kW), nothing close to what it is in the winter. Likewise, when it's in the 40's the A/C compressor will run in recirc mode to dehumidify the air so the windows don't fog, and this also reduces the amount of energy used vs. heating raw outside air. So yes, leaving A/C on can actually use less energy than if you turn it off. The A/C compressor should be running any time the outside temp is above about 40ºF by design. It can slow down to almost nothing (like 5% of max speed), so the energy used is extremely minimal at times.

Yeah, I thought of the "it's necessary" angle. It's a good theory, but I believe its rules are far stricter than they need tobe, and, essentially, the settings aren't as complete as they need to be. Thus my request for a single button that says "MAX RANGE".

In terms of managing cabin humidity, living in the bay area with modest humidity, when I see the AC come on it doesn't seem like there's any real risk for window fogging. The humidity outside is also reasonable, so it would seem most efficient to sip in some of the outside air, instead of firing up the compressor - and then firing up the heater to keep the cabin warm. It could easily be it thinks I'll be uncomfortable at higher humidity, so it's kicking in the A/C.

This especially seems true when the outside air is closer to my target temperature than the inside air. But the settings seem to say it's staying in recirc. It just doesn't seem optimal, and I'm not willing to believe "ford knows what they're doing". I think what's happening is they're working very hard to maintain comfort, when I want to relax comfort and save range. Thus my request for a button. Sometimes I know I have enough range, and I put auto up to two pips, and the car is VERY GOOD at managing my comfort.

In terms of managing temperature, if I lower the temperature closer to the outside temp, then the AC comes on. If I raise the temp, the heater comes on. I really want to express that I'm OK with variability - 72 plus or minus 20 degrees - like setting the number of octaves on a parametric EQ (if you're into sound). I'm not requesting a "comfort band" because that would be a bit on the silly and geeky side. MAX RANGE then allowing the temp band more latitude seems better. There could even be a menu entry about how much latitude to give MAX RANGE.

I can't believe the elctronics in the car care about temps up to 100F, or lower than 32F, except for the battery. Chips are usually cooled to 60C, wires are rated to at least 60C, and in automotive applications they use even better stuff.

There is an interesting question about the efficiency of outside air. I always assume that pulling in a little outside air has very minor cost, that a servo opening a vent somewhat and a fan coming on is nothing, really. It's possible there are outsized impacts on the aerodynamics - but that should also be changed in software. You don't need much air to get a little circulation going. I find myself reaching for the manual fan control fairly often, and it increases comfort in our rather excellent climate, this car has a serious bias to never allowing outside air in AUTO mode.

Finally, if I put myself in a Ford designer's shoes, I'd say "HEY! We want to give the impression that RANGE ISN'T A PROBLEM and you don't have to give up COMFORT when driving an EV. We want the overall impression of EVs to be premium, especially the MachE. ECO MODE was an annoying bad thing that came out of the 70's, and nobody likes ECO MODE. The Bolt should have an ECO MODE, not the MachE! This car should ALWAYS be luxurious and comfortable. If we put MAX RANGE on the screen in big letters it'll remind people that RANGE IS A PROBLEM. Or they'll turn on MAX RANGE not knowing what it does, and be uncomfortable and not really know why, and dislike the car. Feature request denied "

The design direction Ford would have to take is *CONTROL*, I think. The MachE is about putting YOU in control when you want. That's why three driving modes! That's why the big screen with so many settings! That's why great automatic cabin temp settings!

With that in mind, maybe it would be a slider in the climate control sub-screen that controls the "tightness" of the temp band and humidity band. Sort of like "whisper" / "normal" / "unbridled" for the climate controls. By putting the setting on the sub-menu (instead of the front panel), it keeps it a bit more "out of mind" and for the enthusiast.

 

[bbulkow]

So one point I'm not sure was made is that percentage is not the same thing as consumption. @bbulkow if you are driving slow, then the climate will be a much larger percentage of total energy use than when driving at freeway speed, even though the actual HVAC consumption is the same. For example:

City speed:
HVAC - 1 kW (17%)
Motors - 5 kW (83%)
Total - 6 kW

Highway speed:
HVAC - 1 kW (4%)
Motors - 25 kW (96%)
Total - 26 kW

Notice the HVAC energy consumption is exactly the same (1 kW) in both cases, even though the percentages are vastly different.

Ford could help here by showing live kW readings rather than just cumulative percentages.

Yes, and, reductio ad absurdum, if the car is standing still the percentage on HVAC is very high. Infinite. I did leave the car for 5 minutes with passengers inside and the climate control on, I checked the screen as we got going after, the % on climate was 50% ~ which was fine, I had no range issues that day. I am super OK with the climate system when I don't care about range. And, I know those moments when I don't care contribute to the long-term 11% climate I see for the last 7k of miles.

I have CarScanner and sometimes hook it up and watch the actual power ratings. Still looking for a way in CarScanner to show the m / kwh, and it would be nice to see that inclusive of, and exclusive of, climate. Maybe I"ll figure out how to get live graphs of compound sensors working in Carscanner - right now, I only know how to download the raw CSVs and post-process in a spreadsheet, which is just a bit more work than I want to do right now.

I'm also unsure that heated seats, heated steering wheel, and fans are accounted against "climate" or against "accessories". Just watching the numbers, I'm guessing accessories, which is also not really fair.

Someone said that heating is also the battery, but the battery heater is 6kw. If the cabin heat runs off the same circ system as the battery (which seems complicated, the desired temp for the battery is different than the desired temp for the cabin, sometimes you can "intercool" , sometimes you're driving them both in the same direction).

See my longer response to you below.

I think what raises this issue to my %1 is when I turn off AC explicitly and the car turns it back on for reasons I can't fathom. I want to be in control damnit.

On the other hand, I've started (as the weather is turning a little colder) starting to get a lot of faults in the camera and sensor systems. I'll be scheduling some time with service, but if it keeps acting like it did the last few weeks, I may have a new #1

 

[Mach-Lee]

Finally, if I put myself in a Ford designer's shoes, I'd say "HEY! We want to give the impression that RANGE ISN'T A PROBLEM and you don't have to give up COMFORT when driving an EV. We want the overall impression of EVs to be premium, especially the MachE. ECO MODE was an annoying bad thing that came out of the 70's, and nobody likes ECO MODE. The Bolt should have an ECO MODE, not the MachE! This car should ALWAYS be luxurious and comfortable. If we put MAX RANGE on the screen in big letters it'll remind people that RANGE IS A PROBLEM. Or they'll turn on MAX RANGE not knowing what it does, and be uncomfortable and not really know why, and dislike the car. Feature request denied "

Yup, I think that's exactly how it went. There was probably a moratorium on calling anything in the car an "ECO" mode because it draws attention to range.

The "lazy" temp control your proposing would save energy, but IDK how many people would care or like it?

There is an interesting question about the efficiency of outside air. I always assume that pulling in a little outside air has very minor cost, that a servo opening a vent somewhat and a fan coming on is nothing, really. It's possible there are outsized impacts on the aerodynamics - but that should also be changed in software. You don't need much air to get a little circulation going. I find myself reaching for the manual fan control fairly often, and it increases comfort in our rather excellent climate, this car has a serious bias to never allowing outside air in AUTO mode.

Yes, recirculating the conditioned air in the cabin might be less energy than conditioning outside air as long as temp and humidity stay in check. This is why the fresh air damper likes to open and close so much on its own. Especially in the winter, it wants to keep the heat in the cabin and only take in outside air to drop the humidity.

I'm also unsure that heated seats, heated steering wheel, and fans are accounted against "climate" or against "accessories". Just watching the numbers, I'm guessing accessories, which is also not really fair.

All 12V accessories fall under the "accessories" category. This includes heated seats, heated steering wheel, blower motor, electric defrost, radiator fan.

Heat and A/C compressor use fall under Climate, regardless of if they are being used to condition the cabin or the battery.

Maybe you know this, but if you just want outside air with no conditioning you can put the temp on LO and manually set the blower speed to 3 or whatever, then turn off A/C and heat. I think that gives you full control.

 

[bbulkow]

Yup, I think that's exactly how it went. There was probably a moratorium on calling anything in the car an "ECO" mode because it draws attention to range.

The "lazy" temp control your proposing would save energy, but IDK how many people would care or like it?

Yes, recirculating the conditioned air in the cabin might be less energy than conditioning outside air as long as temp and humidity stay in check. This is why the fresh air damper likes to open and close so much on its own. Especially in the winter, it wants to keep the heat in the cabin and only take in outside air to drop the humidity.

***

Maybe you know this, but if you just want outside air with no conditioning you can put the temp on LO and manually set the blower speed to 3 or whatever, then turn off A/C and heat. I think that gives you full control.

What peeves me about this situation is not having control. The climate controls are pretty great for an average situation where I want to maximize comfort - I typically do 1 bar of auto, sometimes 2 bars - but having the AC and heat crank on after I've explicitly told them off is really annoying, and causes a bit of distraction - now, I'm always looking for it, or listening for it. The car's quiet enough that the AC sounds like a massive jet plane when it spools up if I'm around town.

If it really is humidity, give me a sensor readout on the climate page for internal and external humidity, and let me set a target or a target range! MOAR CONTROL

It's my personal #1 feature. I don't see too many other people complaining about climate controls, so either they've got bigger problems to complain about, or they like Ford's system. As a counterpoint, the fact that Tesla's don't have a per-seat control on the amount of air flow was INSTABAN from my partner. It was literally the bright line reason we didn't get a Tesla (I had my other reasons but she was "i'm not riding in one if you buy it"). Climate matters.... and *generally* the MachE's is good and has lots of control... EXCEPT THIS.

The other sad-maker is going into the power screen and seeing 11% (I checked yesterday) going to climate. Even though the rational part of my brain said "rarely do I drive for range" and "I know I can manually turn things off and watch them" and "you're averaging when you care and when you don't care" the more childish part of my brain says "that's too much" and "it's actually lowball because it doesn't include the seats". And I know if I'm driving for range I'll be handsfree, and I"ll have lots of time to play with the manual controls.

I'll try the LO trick. I didn't know that. I expected 'LO' to be more like MINIMUM and crank up the AC. Given prior experience, I expected if I turned off AC it would turn it right back on again.

I also think I noticed yesterday the passenger heated seat disengages if there's no one sitting there. This is an improvement from 6 months ago (last "winter"), it didn't used to do that, I don't know when it happened. Improvements are possible!

 

[bbulkow]

What peeves me about this situation is not having control.

I had another brainwave for climate control: the "swap" button. My partner and I have very different preferred settings - she likes her "bun warmer" on 3, I like mine on auto; I like my temp about 4 degrees lower than hers. We switch off driving enough (she likes the mache drive too; usually I get first shift, she'll get second, then we'll alternate), It would be great to "swap" instead of having to re-adjust so many manual settings.

Just a note, ford.... swap button!

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