Reopening America ?

[Redundant]

I ask again, how long will it take to make and do millions of tests per day. You can use the "defense act" or anything you want, but it doesn't mean it will just happen. This kind of request could take months or years to accomplish. Can we wait that long? What is the rate of false positives or false negatives? How quickly must the tests be done?

There are plenty of testing labs out there that would love to make a ton of money on this virus. Why aren't they doing it? Or maybe they are, but it just isn't that simple to do.

Am I wrong? If so, how long do you think it will take to have that kind of testing base? I'm talking about getting out of the current lockdown, not the fall. Things will be better by the fall, but I'm more concerned about today than I am about four or five months from now. New tests are being approved as we move forward, but getting millions per day is not going to come quickly for the current problem we face, if ever.

I'm now hearing the virus is mutating into varied strains which will make vaccines and tests even more difficult to accomplish. How do we do it?

All good points and I don't think I have an answer for any of them specifically. I know what our country can do when we put our mind to it.

Otherwise, I just deleted the balance of my response because I don't think anyone will change their minds here. And that is fine and understandable. And, I include myself in that. I am not sure what would cause me to change my mind about our political situation.

So, we all have to get through this and do the best we can. Here's to that.

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[pbojanoski]

I would like to thank everyone that has shared their thoughts on this thread in a thoughtful and constructive way. I would also like to thank everyone for listening to my thoughts in response. Suffice to say my only agenda on this thread and on this forum in general is to learn and share my thoughts when pertinent.

I certainly expected to be more of a listener and less of a talker when I joined this forum. I wanted to learn about EV's and the Mach E. I figured I wouldn't have too much to contribute.

For good or bad (I'm sure there is varying opinion out there ) I ended up posting more than I ever expected due to COVID-19 and the resulting lockdown of the economy. I am very interested in keeping conversation honest and constructive. I do not enjoy partisan arguments. I do my best to leave out partisan people or parties in my commentary. But I am very interested in how this country can move forward in the best way possible.

Thanks again for those that have read my posts and gave them some consideration. That is my only hope. I have done the same for most that post here and appreciate your input.

 

[pbojanoski]

All good points and I don't think I have an answer for any of them specifically. I know what our country can do when we put our mind to it.

Otherwise, I just deleted the balance of my response because I don't think anyone will change their minds here. And that is fine and understandable. And, I include myself in that. I am not sure what would cause me to change my mind about our political situation.

So, we all have to get through this and do the best we can. Here's to that.

Thanks for thinking about all this and not being offended by my sometimes intense questioning.

Cheers to you and your family.

 

[TheSteelRider]

Thanks for the thinking about all this and not being offended by my sometimes intense questioning.

Cheers to you and your family.

I second that. In truth, America (and the world) only succeeds if we all row in the same (or at least similar) direction. It's OK (and healthy) to disagree, as long as we are all still rowing in tandem.

Edit: Separated my next comment into a new thread: https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/how-trolls-on-reddit-try-to-manipulate-you.697/

 

[Gary Hankins]

My local paper recently published their editorial next to a political cartoon which labeled Christisans as, "Covidiots". I prompted me to write down my thoughts on this issue. They appear below.

I read your editorial urging us to vote by mail in today’s edition. I saw immediately to its right a political cartoon which labeled Christians attending church as “Covid-iots”. We are being told that we should give up our right to vote at the polls and to attend church because we are experiencing a pandemic from which more than 98 percent of those who are infected will survive with little or no medical intervention.

Millions of Americans have served to preserve and protect these rights. Hundreds of thousands of our fellow Americans have died fighting to save our Republic. Now, some of our media and many of our politicians are trying to use this infection as an opportunity to do what no enemy has done. It is insidious that our culture has been weakened to the point where an influenza is being used to steal our rights and destroy our faith.

I am a member of Trinity Lutheran Church here in Cumberland. Our pastor, Eric Ruble, kept our doors open by multiplying the number of services, with the requirement that no service exceed the limit of 10 individuals. He has worked hard in the name of Jesus Christ to share Him with us across the Easter season. We also recorded the services. The recordings were emailed to any member of our congregation who chose not to attend. He will continue this practice until the restriction is lifted.

Our Constitution established that our rights come from our Creator, not from our government. We have the right to make decisions on how to exercise those rights. I believe our government has violated the right to assemble and to worship. I recognize the reasonable efforts to advise us of the circumstances which should inform our decisions, are positives. However, we cannot ever concede our right to make those decisions which are guaranteed by our Constitution, to a government or media which believes we are not capable of making these decisions in accordance with their will.

Thanks be to God in every circumstance. Let us couple that with the need to defend ourselves from those who appoint themselves as our superiors and who would substitute their thoughts for our rights!

 

[Ken7]

Gary, it's unfortunately that the far left is always attacking religion. As you know, it's not just the Catholic religion that's under assault, it's many of our established faiths. You see this same pattern in many communist countries and we can only hope it's not a precursor of things to come here. The media leads the attack and acts with disdain when it sees those that embrace their religion. Very unfortunate.

I'm going to guess, if you sent it in, it wasn't published or you didn't get a response.

 

[pbojanoski]

My local paper recently published their editorial next to a political cartoon which labeled Christisans as, "Covidiots". I prompted me to write down my thoughts on this issue. They appear below.

I read your editorial urging us to vote by mail in today’s edition. I saw immediately to its right a political cartoon which labeled Christians attending church as “Covid-iots”. We are being told that we should give up our right to vote at the polls and to attend church because we are experiencing a pandemic from which more than 98 percent of those who are infected will survive with little or no medical intervention.

Millions of Americans have served to preserve and protect these rights. Hundreds of thousands of our fellow Americans have died fighting to save our Republic. Now, some of our media and many of our politicians are trying to use this infection as an opportunity to do what no enemy has done. It is insidious that our culture has been weakened to the point where an influenza is being used to steal our rights and destroy our faith.

I am a member of Trinity Lutheran Church here in Cumberland. Our pastor, Eric Ruble, kept our doors open by multiplying the number of services, with the requirement that no service exceed the limit of 10 individuals. He has worked hard in the name of Jesus Christ to share Him with us across the Easter season. We also recorded the services. The recordings were emailed to any member of our congregation who chose not to attend. He will continue this practice until the restriction is lifted.

Our Constitution established that our rights come from our Creator, not from our government. We have the right to make decisions on how to exercise those rights. I believe our government has violated the right to assemble and to worship. I recognize the reasonable efforts to advise us of the circumstances which should inform our decisions, are positives. However, we cannot ever concede our right to make those decisions which are guaranteed by our Constitution, to a government or media which believes we are not capable of making these decisions in accordance with their will.

Thanks be to God in every circumstance. Let us couple that with the need to defend ourselves from those who appoint themselves as our superiors and who would substitute their thoughts for our rights!

Glad you posted @Gary Hankins. I too believe many are ignoring or taking very lightly the economic issues and the hardly spoken of rights and freedoms almost all of us have given up with nary a question as to why or for how long. If anyone has the gall to ask these simple questions, they are labeled dumb, uncaring murderers that should be removed from society.

When did this country change from one that ran into a fight and instead now runs home to the nearest dark corner waiting for the fight to pass? The whole point of the "lockdown" was to stop the medical system from being overwhelmed. The lockdown WAS NOT done to prevent anyone from dying. Preventing all deaths from COVID-19 is not possible and would cause unimaginable death and despair from the resulting failed economy.

Am I okay with people dying? Obviously not, but people die in the tens of thousands every year from the flu and somehow we didn't even do masks and social distancing. Now people die from a different virus in the tens of thousands and we are forced to destroy the economy as a result. Sorry, but I fail to see how we got from where we were every other year to where we are now. Yes, there was a lot we didn't know and maybe the initial shutdown was warranted, but after learning what we now do know and seeing the medical system will not be overrun, why have we moved the goal posts from not overwhelming the system to there must be vitually no deaths before we can restart the economy. I wonder if anyone can answer that?

I think questioning our government is a GREAT thing. All of us should do more of it. That many in our country try to silence those they disagree with for simply asking a question should be very troubling for everyone. Ask yourself whether you should be drummed out of society for ask a question that others don't like. I'm guessing almost 100% of us would say no, but I'm also guessing that many would do just that to someone who asked a question they didn't like.

Thanks for chiming in Gary. I love hearing new perspectives. Learning new ways of thinking is a great thing for all of us.

 

[pbojanoski]

Gary, it's unfortunately that the far left is always attacking religion. As you know, it's not just the Catholic religion that's under assault, it's many of our established faiths. You see this same pattern in many communist countries and we can only hope it's not a precursor of things to come here. The media leads the attack and acts with disdain when it sees those that embrace their religion. Very unfortunate.

I'm going to guess, if you sent it in, it wasn't published or you didn't get a response.

For many, environmentalism, socialism, and other "isms" have replaced traditional religion. These "isms" are the new religion out there and many will be happy to destroy anyone who doesn't agree.

 

[Sweetwater]

Ken, Peter Sounds like you guys have had enough and are ready to go
back to normal. How are we to do it when out Gov. leaders can not agree
on anything ? Yes I'm retired but have children and grandchildren that must
go back to work soon. They want to but at the same time are scared. This is
what this Virus has done to everyone's mind. We talked about it coming and
it was then here and now slowing up. What will we talk about in 30 days ?
What if opening up too soon will silence our voices forever.

 

[Redundant]

My local paper recently published their editorial next to a political cartoon which labeled Christisans as, "Covidiots". I prompted me to write down my thoughts on this issue. They appear below.

I read your editorial urging us to vote by mail in today’s edition. I saw immediately to its right a political cartoon which labeled Christians attending church as “Covid-iots”. We are being told that we should give up our right to vote at the polls and to attend church because we are experiencing a pandemic from which more than 98 percent of those who are infected will survive with little or no medical intervention.

Millions of Americans have served to preserve and protect these rights. Hundreds of thousands of our fellow Americans have died fighting to save our Republic. Now, some of our media and many of our politicians are trying to use this infection as an opportunity to do what no enemy has done. It is insidious that our culture has been weakened to the point where an influenza is being used to steal our rights and destroy our faith.

I am a member of Trinity Lutheran Church here in Cumberland. Our pastor, Eric Ruble, kept our doors open by multiplying the number of services, with the requirement that no service exceed the limit of 10 individuals. He has worked hard in the name of Jesus Christ to share Him with us across the Easter season. We also recorded the services. The recordings were emailed to any member of our congregation who chose not to attend. He will continue this practice until the restriction is lifted.

Our Constitution established that our rights come from our Creator, not from our government. We have the right to make decisions on how to exercise those rights. I believe our government has violated the right to assemble and to worship. I recognize the reasonable efforts to advise us of the circumstances which should inform our decisions, are positives. However, we cannot ever concede our right to make those decisions which are guaranteed by our Constitution, to a government or media which believes we are not capable of making these decisions in accordance with their will.

Thanks be to God in every circumstance. Let us couple that with the need to defend ourselves from those who appoint themselves as our superiors and who would substitute their thoughts for our rights!

Ah, no. Our rights as citizens do not come from our creator. In fact it very specifically does not come from the creator. Our government is secular. The very first amendment to the constitution protects peoples right to religion and separates it from government. This is good news and most religions embrace it, including christians. It is a protection, not a restriction. Just because the government doesn't want you having services because of Covid-19, is not a restriction on your religion, because it applies to all religions and to all non religions too. Atheist groups can't have large meetings either. It sounds like your pastor is doing things right, and that is great. I am sure you want everyone safe in your church. Below is a very good explanation of the first amendment. Stay safe.

WHAT IS RELIGIOUS FREEDOM EXACTLY?
The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says that everyone in the United States has the right to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all.

Our country's founders -- who were of different religious backgrounds themselves -- knew the best way to protect religious liberty was to keep the government out of religion. So they created the First Amendment -- to guarantee the separation of church and state. This fundamental freedom is a major reason why the U.S. has managed to avoid a lot of the religious conflicts that have torn so many other nations apart.

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits government from encouraging or promoting ("establishing") religion in any way. That's why we don't have an official religion of the United States. This means that the government may not give financial support to any religion. That's why many school voucher programs violate the Establishment Clause -- because they give taxpayers' money to schools that promote religion.

The Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment gives you the right to worship or not as you choose. The government can't penalize you because of your religious beliefs.

 

[pbojanoski]

Ken, Peter Sounds like you guys have had enough and are ready to go
back to normal. How are we to do it when out Gov. leaders can not agree
on anything ? Yes I'm retired but have children and grandchildren that must
go back to work soon. They want to but at the same time are scared. This is
what this Virus has done to everyone's mind. We talked about it coming and
it was then here and now slowing up. What will we talk about in 30 days ?
What if opening up too soon will silence our voices forever.

We pretty much are following the government lead at this point whether we like it or not. Businesses can't open unless the government gives them the okay. If they did open, I assume there would be significant consequences from the media and the government. Businesses can't afford to fight this fight.

To be clear, I'm NOT ready to go back to normal. What I am ready for is to allow businesses to reopen in a staged and controlled way while promoting the use of mitigation. (masks, social distancing, etc.)

Grocery stores, Home Depot, gas stations, etc. are open. The country isn't dying as a result. Why can't I get a haircut or buy a tree from a local nursery?

Just asking.

 

[pbojanoski]

Ah, no. Our rights as citizens do not come from our creator. In fact it very specifically does not come from the creator. Our government is secular. The very first amendment to the constitution protects peoples right to religion and separates it from government. This is good news and most religions embrace it, including christians. It is a protection, not a restriction. Just because the government doesn't want you having services because of Covid-19, is not a restriction on your religion, because it applies to all religions and to all non religions too. Atheist groups can't have large meetings either. It sounds like your pastor is doing things right, and that is great. I am sure you want everyone safe in your church. Below is a very good explanation of the first amendment. Stay safe.

WHAT IS RELIGIOUS FREEDOM EXACTLY?
The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says that everyone in the United States has the right to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all.

Our country's founders -- who were of different religious backgrounds themselves -- knew the best way to protect religious liberty was to keep the government out of religion. So they created the First Amendment -- to guarantee the separation of church and state. This fundamental freedom is a major reason why the U.S. has managed to avoid a lot of the religious conflicts that have torn so many other nations apart.

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits government from encouraging or promoting ("establishing") religion in any way. That's why we don't have an official religion of the United States. This means that the government may not give financial support to any religion. That's why many school voucher programs violate the Establishment Clause -- because they give taxpayers' money to schools that promote religion.

The Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment gives you the right to worship or not as you choose. The government can't penalize you because of your religious beliefs.

A history lesson for some:

Declaration of Independence

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor

 

[Redundant]

Ken, Peter Sounds like you guys have had enough and are ready to go
back to normal. How are we to do it when out Gov. leaders can not agree
on anything ? Yes I'm retired but have children and grandchildren that must
go back to work soon. They want to but at the same time are scared. This is
what this Virus has done to everyone's mind. We talked about it coming and
it was then here and now slowing up. What will we talk about in 30 days ?
What if opening up too soon will silence our voices forever.

As you guys know, except Ken maybe because he blocked me, I have been discussing what is needed to safely open, which is testing, or more completely, a plan with testing, isolating, contact tracing and quarantining. Attached is an interesting interview with Dr. Tom Frieden, a former official at the CDC.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...testing-really-look-like-top-expert-explains/

 

[pbojanoski]

Then there is the first, ninth, and tenth amendments to the Constitution:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

So where in the Constitution does it give government the right to force us to stay in our homes or out of our businesses with little explanation and no end date?

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