Reopening America ?

[zhackwyatt]

Ah, no. Our rights as citizens do not come from our creator.

Rights are inherent to us because we are human. Some believe they come from our Creator (like me). Others do not believe in a creator, which is their right. But that does not mean the rights come from the government. If they came from the government, that means they are coming from other people that have the power to take away your right. The Constitution was never intended to give government that kind of power. It was framed in a way to keep government from ever exercising that kind of power.

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[Redundant]

Then there is the first, ninth, and tenth amendments to the Constitution:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

So where in the Constitution does it give government the right to force us to stay in our homes or out of our businesses with little explanation and no end date?

In theory, you have to remember, the government is us. We elect people to represent our interests. They make laws. The constitution is the foundation of our country of laws, but of course is not the end of the story. Federal laws, state laws, local laws, all established to enable us to live together. Without them, obviously, anarchy. I will address your last sentence in pieces.

So where in the Constitution does it give government the right to force us to stay in our homes: I think you will find that there have not been any requirements that we stay in our homes. This is not Marshall law. You do not get arrested for leaving your house, driving wherever you want to go, to shop.
or out of our businesses: Most businesses have closed because it is the right thing to do. Our factory closed because the workers didn't want to risk coming to work. We were not closed by the Government, in NJ BTW, but by the employees themselves.
with little explanation: Well, you know this is absurd. All there are these days are explanations. Cuomo is on everyday, explaining the status of the state, healthcare, why he is extending stay at home recommendations, etc. Trump as well. We have nothing but explanations.
and no end date?: Come on, what date should we put down for a vaccine? This is a virus that even the scientists and doctors are just trying to understand and they are learning new things everyday. You may have seen the news just yesterday about the evidence that this is leading to clotting disorders. You continue to be angry that states are worried about their citizens health. It is mystifying to me, frankly. Do you agree that the only safe way forward for opening is a plan with testing, isolating, contact tracing and quarantining?

 

[Redundant]

Rights are inherent to us because we are human. Some believe they come from our Creator (like me). Others do not believe in a creator, which is their right. But that does not mean the rights come from the government. If they came from the government, that means they are coming from other people that have the power to take away your right. The Constitution was never intended to give government that kind of power. It was framed in a way to keep government from ever exercising that kind of power.

Again, not really. You may feel that, but our government does not take into account a creator or god when doing it's duties. What you do as a human and what your beliefs are your right. That is the whole point. I don't get why people consider these rights in the constitution a benefit. The government is not telling you what to believe in or how to believe in it as long as it does not hurt others. That is great! If we elected a Muslim president, he couldn't shut down the churches, or make you follow Allah. All he could do is be president, sworn to follow our constitution. It is one of the greatest gifts our founders gave us.

However, the government must protect all citizens, and that is why they don't want large gatherings in churches, synagogues or Moose Lodges. This protects all people. There was a church choir practice where they practiced social distancing. Over half of them came down with the virus. This was before masks. This is a nasty disease and the government is right to try to protect us? No?

Finally, your beliefs do not override the publics right to safety. You are free to practice your beliefs safely. Your beliefs do not legally allow you to not provide necessary medical care to your child. Or to extreme lengths, your beliefs do not allow you to perform human sacrifices. The last being absurd, but makes the point, your beliefs do not trump other peoples rights, to health, their own beliefs, etc.

Our government is secular. It has nothing to do with god or Jesus or Allah or Buddha or Brahma.

 

[Sweetwater]

Why is everyone arguing ? Sure no date for this or that. If you do not
like the lock down then put your coat on and go about. How about we
open everything on Monday ? Those who want it go for it. Those who do
not, stay home. So both sides win ? No not at all as the Virus will tell us
when it is safe. I feel bad that people here want to argue and not get
along. We act like our Gov. not being able to come to agreements.
I am so tired of this virus as much as you.
Did you know IF Trump and Pence die from the virus then :
Nancy Polosi becomes President !! Now that's a virus.

 

[zhackwyatt]

Again, not really. You may feel that, but our government does not take into account a creator or god when doing it's duties. What you do as a human and what your beliefs are your right. That is the whole point. I don't get why people consider these rights in the constitution a benefit. The government is not telling you what to believe in or how to believe in it as long as it does not hurt others. That is great! If we elected a Muslim president, he couldn't shut down the churches, or make you follow Allah. All he could do is be president, sworn to follow our constitution. It is one of the greatest gifts our founders gave us.

However, the government must protect all citizens, and that is why they don't want large gatherings in churches, synagogues or Moose Lodges. This protects all people. There was a church choir practice where they practiced social distancing. Over half of them came down with the virus. This was before masks. This is a nasty disease and the government is right to try to protect us? No?

Finally, your beliefs do not override the publics right to safety. You are free to practice your beliefs safely. Your beliefs do not legally allow you to not provide necessary medical care to your child. Or to extreme lengths, your beliefs do not allow you to perform human sacrifices. The last being absurd, but makes the point, your beliefs do not trump other peoples rights, to health, their own beliefs, etc.

Our government is secular. It has nothing to do with god or Jesus or Allah or Buddha or Brahma.

My point was the government and the constitution doesn't provide any rights at all. They are inherit to us. Regardless if you believe in a god or not. The Constitution is a reaffirmation of these rights. They are not constitutional rights, they are constitutionally protected rights. That was my only point.

 

[pbojanoski]

In theory, you have to remember, the government is us. We elect people to represent our interests. They make laws. The constitution is the foundation of our country of laws, but of course is not the end of the story. Federal laws, state laws, local laws, all established to enable us to live together. Without them, obviously, anarchy. I will address your last sentence in pieces.

So where in the Constitution does it give government the right to force us to stay in our homes: I think you will find that there have not been any requirements that we stay in our homes. This is not Marshall law. You do not get arrested for leaving your house, driving wherever you want to go, to shop.
or out of our businesses: Most businesses have closed because it is the right thing to do. Our factory closed because the workers didn't want to risk coming to work. We were not closed by the Government, in NJ BTW, but by the employees themselves.
with little explanation: Well, you know this is absurd. All there are these days are explanations. Cuomo is on everyday, explaining the status of the state, healthcare, why he is extending stay at home recommendations, etc. Trump as well. We have nothing but explanations.
and no end date?: Come on, what date should we put down for a vaccine? This is a virus that even the scientists and doctors are just trying to understand and they are learning new things everyday. You may have seen the news just yesterday about the evidence that this is leading to clotting disorders. You continue to be angry that states are worried about their citizens health. It is mystifying to me, frankly. Do you agree that the only safe way forward for opening is a plan with testing, isolating, contact tracing and quarantining?

People have been arrested or ticketed for being out of their house. This is well documented. How is this possible or legal?

Explanations for why we are in our homes and businesses are closed are completely arbitrary and at the whim of the Governor or Mayor in charge. There is clearly no scientific reason for why certain businesses are closed and others are open. There are clearly no scientific reason why one state is opening today and another in a very similar situation is staying closed for another month.

Decisions are clearly being made due to politics, social media, personal biases, etc. These decisions affect millions and give them no say in their own lives.

Why can I go to a home depot, but not a flooring store across the street? Where is the explanation in that? Where is the science?

Why are outdoor parks closed? Where is the science to suggest being in a park is more dangerous than being in my home?

Again, I'm not arguing the point just to be contrary. These are questions that should be answered, but clearly are not being answered. Instead, the various government officials just point to the nearest medical official they feel they can count on and say that this "expert" said so. Quite frankly, crashing an economy over some arbitrary "expert" is not worth it, IMO. I can easily find an "expert" that will say the exact opposite. So how do we ever move forward?

I've already stated my plan forward too many times to count. An I'm not angry over anything other than that too many people seem to care less what the affects of a crashing economy will be. I think there are way to many "comfortable" people on this forum with a lot of wealth that seem way to uninformed about the plight of the millions out there that have already lost their livelihoods. There is no way we just say we're ready to open the economy and all those people just go back to work. We may already be to far down the road to avoid a very bad recession or depression. Is that warranted based on what we currently know about this virus? I would say no, it is not.

And if you haven't read the dozens of previous posts that stated exactly what I think we should be doing going forward, I will do it one more time:

1. Keep vulnerable protected.
2. Allow all people to protect themselves and to stay home if that is their choice.
3. Use businesses to enforce all accepted mitigation techniques. (social distancing, masks, disinfection of surfaces, personal hand washing, etc.)
4. Open less affected areas first. Over a period of days, continue to open other areas that are not clearly "hotspots".
5. Test all people that present to a physician, whether or not it is for a COVID-19 related visit.
6. As flair ups present, reinforce mitigation, but use business closures and lockdowns as a last resort. Business closures should be limited to time required to disinfect surfaces and verify mitigation techniques.
7. Continue and expand antibody testing to get a clear indication of the extent of infection and the real mortality and complication rates.
8. Continue to update mitigation recommendations as new information present itself.
9. Continue to explore and verify treatment techiques.

The whole point of the lockdowns was to prevent overwhelming the medical systems. Do you disagree with this?

We clearly have not overwhelmed the medical system. So lets start getting back to work in stages, learning and adjusting as we go.

We live in a "free society", but hundreds of millions of people are no longer free to go to work, run a business, see their family, exercise there rights as citizens of this country. We have an economy on the brink that will cause countless deaths and destroyed lives.

How exactly do you justify all the coming death and despair vs. the risks of this virus which 99% or more of people will most likely survive even if they get it? And much fewer people will get it in the short term due to the mitigation techniques.

The virus is probably not going away anytime soon and could be with us for years to come. Will the economy be shutdown for years?

The virus is mutating, an effective vaccine may not be possible. What happens then?

These are questions I don't expect you to answer since nobody, including the "experts" has the answer.

One answer we do know is that this economy cannot survive being closed for too much longer.

 

[pbojanoski]

Finally, your beliefs do not override the publics right to safety. You are free to practice your beliefs safely. Your beliefs do not legally allow you to not provide necessary medical care to your child. Or to extreme lengths, your beliefs do not allow you to perform human sacrifices. The last being absurd, but makes the point, your beliefs do not trump other peoples rights, to health, their own beliefs, etc.

You have no "right" to safety other than what you provide for yourself and what the civil society demands, (life, liberty, and property not taken by others unjustly)

You would be much safer if you are not 50lbs overweight, but the government doesn't force you to lose weight.

You would be safer if you didn't smoke, but the government doesn't stop you from smoking.

You would be much safer if you didn't drink to excess or take drugs, but we still have easy access to them and little government intervention.

I'm sure I could go on and on.

So I believe I have right to keep my job. I believe I have a right to partake in commerce with another willing citizen. I believe I have a right to go to my local park and enjoy the fresh air. But government has removed these rights from millions. Why are you in support of my rights being taken away, while using your "rights" as the reason to take mine away?

I support your right to stay home and protect yourself in any manner you wish.

Why won't you give me the same consideration?

 

[Gary Hankins]

The moment any individual tells another that he has no rights except those granted by a government, he has placed himself in the role of God. God grants us our rights, not man. Anyone who denies that our nation is founded on this bedrock is either ignorant of our history or has been misled by those he entrusted with his education.

 

[SyNRG]

Explanations for why we are in our homes and businesses are closed are completely arbitrary and at the whim of the Governor or Mayor in charge. There is clearly no scientific reason for why certain businesses are closed and others are open. There are clearly no scientific reason why one state is opening today and another in a very similar situation is staying closed for another month.

Decisions are clearly being made due to politics, social media, personal biases, etc. These decisions affect millions and give them no say in their own lives.

Why can I go to a home depot, but not a flooring store across the street? Where is the explanation in that? Where is the science?

Why are outdoor parks closed? Where is the science to suggest being in a park is more dangerous than being in my home?

-For California -decisions are being driven based on the data that's being reported from healthcare systems, CDC, Dept. of Public Health, etc.

-Here in Orange County, Ca, Home Depot, Lowes, Ace Hardware, all flooring, plumbing, A/C repair, tire shops, dry cleaners are still open.

-Being at the park or beach is dangerous when folks are not adhering to the social distancing guidelines. Here in SoCal, the first weekend of shelter in place, it was nice and warm, nice change from all the rain we had just gotten, guess what? Folks packed the beaches and park, some practiced social distancing, others treated it as normal off day and did not, thus they had to get stricter.

 

[Sweetwater]

-For California -decisions are being driven based on the data that's being reported from healthcare systems, CDC, Dept. of Public Health, etc.

-Here in Orange County, Ca, Home Depot, Lowes, Ace Hardware, all flooring, plumbing, A/C repair, tire shops, dry cleaners are still open.

-Being at the park or beach is dangerous when folks are not adhering to the social distancing guidelines. Here in SoCal, the first weekend of shelter in place, it was nice and warm, nice change from all the rain we had just gotten, guess what? Folks packed the beaches and park, some practiced social distancing, others treated it as normal off day and did not, thus they had to get stricter.

That will happen very soon across the country. We can talk and hope all
will go slow as planned. I do not think people will do this. Warm weather and
opening stores is what we need but it will be abused. The wiser ones will not
participate to the madness. Too much protests and people complaining
will cause a stampede .

 

[pbojanoski]

-For California -decisions are being driven based on the data that's being reported from healthcare systems, CDC, Dept. of Public Health, etc.

-Here in Orange County, Ca, Home Depot, Lowes, Ace Hardware, all flooring, plumbing, A/C repair, tire shops, dry cleaners are still open.

-Being at the park or beach is dangerous when folks are not adhering to the social distancing guidelines. Here in SoCal, the first weekend of shelter in place, it was nice and warm, nice change from all the rain we had just gotten, guess what? Folks packed the beaches and park, some practiced social distancing, others treated it as normal off day and did not, thus they had to get stricter.

My only problem is why are we allowed to interact in a grocery store and not in an open air park? These kind of arbitrary and unscientific rules are my problem. Yes, people can ignore social distancing in a park. People can do the same thing in a grocery store. Should we close all grocery stores? If not, why not?

I could certainly argue that being able to go to an open air park is a critical part of people's mental health. Why is that any less important than a grocery store?

Here in Pennsylvania, all those stores you mentioned are not open. Why the difference? Where is the science? There has never been an explanation from government other than "trust me".

 

[pbojanoski]

My apologies to all for sounding like a "broken record". I feel like one too.

My only problem in all of this is that the arguments for keeping the economy closed are:

1. People will die
2. I am not comfortable going out

Here are my answers:

1. Yes, people will die. Show me the science to suggest more will die from COVID-19 than will die from a crumbling economy. There is no such science. I would suggest there is more and more evidence to suggest the death and despair from a crumbling world economy will far outweigh the effects of COVID-19. It is at least and arguable position.

2. Nobody is telling you to go out and do anything. If you are more safe at home and either have the means to support yourself without a paycheck or are lucky enough to still have a job, terrific. Stay home, by all means.

On the other side of the coin, there is very real science to suggest there is very real death and despair as a result of turning off 25% of the world economy and telling everyone to stay home. There plenty of stories and science of what is already happening now and plenty from economic downturns in years gone by.

So would I like to take everyone's freedom away on something I don't know or give them their rights and responsibilities based on what I do know? I'm giving people their rights to protect their lives and livelihoods based on the science of what I do know.

Again, my apologies for being a broken record, but the "anti-reopen" folks seem to be denying me my life and liberty with little or no science and little or no consistency on employing the science. That huge policy decisions are being made with little consideration of the real outcomes is a problem we will all have to face.

 

[pbojanoski]

On a MUCH lighter note, as long as we don't talk about teams , I am very much looking forward to the NFL draft tonight. The draft is a time for looking to the future. It is a time for hope on what could be.

In this case it is a dream that we could be getting closer to normal life and watching a football game on Sunday. Even if the stadium only has a small amount of fans for social distancing or an empty stadium, millions of us will be much better off if we can put aside what is happening in the world for a few hours and just enjoy life.

Here is to sports, all of them that we love and have fond memories of. And that we will in some form or fashion be watching them all again soon.

 

[Redundant]

My point was the government and the constitution doesn't provide any rights at all. They are inherit to us. Regardless if you believe in a god or not. The Constitution is a reaffirmation of these rights. They are not constitutional rights, they are constitutionally protected rights. That was my only point.

Oh. Cool.

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