The EV Naysayers

[Auto Motive]

My intention with my original post was not to start a debate. I think ICE vs. EV should be looked at objectively by the buyer. It’s almost like leasing versus buying. Some people are very passionately anti-lease when really leasing suits a lot of people. Back to EVs, I am ideally suited financially, attached garage, shorter commute and my wife has an ICE car. So it’s ideal for ME.

It’s unfortunate to see the extremes yell from their corners which I often think comes down to politics, misinformation and lack of empathy. And when government mandates get added to the mix, it just makes it worse.

China is a communist regime with a dictator. I would not want chinese ev in the U S. The current 25% is too low. Soon votes will be cast in the Senate increasing those tariffs. XI goal is to dominate the world in trade and loans to poor countries. This is not political but a bipartisian held belief in China's end game.

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[thekat03]

Most of these articles seem to miss the fact that the Korean triplets are selling all the BEVs they make and looking to build their new US plant ASAP!

Volvo isn't cutting back production either. And Chinese EV makers want to build in Mexico. The expensive EVs are seeing slowing demand, but the companies making more affordable cars recognize that interest is there.

 

[Auto Motive]

Your technology fear of change is not analogous to the current "EV transition" discussion. Air travel, indoor plumbing, air conditioning, electricity, and computers, all were not replacement technologies but rather new technologies that improved and elevated the human experience. The issue with EV is it is not a new technology in the sense of personal transportation. It's just a different mechanical drivetrain. It's not a better drivetrain in some respects.

Gasoline/diesel cars work perfectly fine for anyone regardless where they live. EV are inconvenient to a good part of the automotive users because they can't charge at home. EV work best with the charge-at-home scenario, especially in winter when preconditioning the battery and preheating the cabin are critical to maintaining range. An apartment dweller who has no C@H capability can't precondition for cold climates. EV advocates are willing to make those compromises.

The problem is EV are being legislated in regardless if they are wanted or not. For the people who don't want EV, all we hear is the battery technology will get better and the charging infrastructure will get better. I've been hearing that for 20 years.

Agree. We have 2 ev for our daily drivers, GTPE and Model Y also used for summer weekend getaways. Our 51000 mile classic 06 Jeep Commander 7 seater is used 900 miles a year since 2019 for family outings, dinner trips to parks and long trips like a few weeks ago. Nice to go in one vehicle. Just took a 1000 mile trip thru 4 states from Western PA to IN. Weather very bad lots of downpoors, snow squals, white outs and eventually clearly out coming home. The perfect 7 seat ev AWD would be 350 miles highway 300 winter. Could the Gravity hit this wish list at $79990?

 

[KevinS]

If gas prices were still at the levels seen at the beginning of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and you could still sell your EV for as much (if not more) than when you bought it, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

EV adoption in America will reach its true tipping point when it's the more affordable option relative to gas/oil.

We'll get there. Solar in the long term is much cheaper than extracting and squeezing dinosaurs.

 

[ctenidae]

EV adoption in America will reach its true tipping point when it's the more affordable option relative to gas/oil.

We'll get there. Solar in the long term is much cheaper than extracting and squeezing dinosaurs.

I agree with this- I think the argument lies between those who think we have to get there RIGHT NOW! and those who don't want to even leave the house until they're good and ready, and don't you try to rush them or they might just go back to bed.

Every charger installed reduces the HassleFactor(tm) a little, and every little bit might move the TotalHassle Score (tm) down enough for someone that it matches a comparable ICE, at which point that person is ready, willing, and able to make a choice between an EV and an ICE. The easier it is to get and operate an EV, the more of them will be bought.

Government subsidies are a way to reduce HassleFactors- rebates reduce the cost, infrastructure money installs charging, making it possible for people who wouldn't have been able to afford an EV otherwise to get one if they want and to charge it at the new station that wouldn't otherwise have been built. They're just supposed to kickstart the process, help get things up to a critical mass so that it's self-sustaining. Like a nuclear pile, I suppose (in too many ways to list!).

But that's not exciting enough to shout about and generate a headline or two.

 

[ctenidae]

China is a communist regime with a dictator. I would not want chinese ev in the U S. The current 25% is too low. Soon votes will be cast in the Senate increasing those tariffs. XI goal is to dominate the world in trade and loans to poor countries. This is not political but a bipartisian held belief in China's end game.

Gosh, I wonder where they got the idea of dominating trade and saddling poor countries with debt? Difference is, China's end game is 200 years out. In the US we have trouble thinking further than the next TikTok scroll.

I say bring on the Chinese cars. If people are willing to buy them, other manufacturers are just going to have to compete. As long as we keep buying cheap Chinese stuff I don't want to hear about fears of Chinese dominance.

 

[KevinS]

I agree with this- I think the argument lies between those who think we have to get there RIGHT NOW! and those who don't want to even leave the house until they're good and ready, and don't you try to rush them or they might just go back to bed.

Every charger installed reduces the HassleFactor(tm) a little, and every little bit might move the TotalHassle Score (tm) down enough for someone that it matches a comparable ICE, at which point that person is ready, willing, and able to make a choice between an EV and an ICE. The easier it is to get and operate an EV, the more of them will be bought.

Government subsidies are a way to reduce HassleFactors- rebates reduce the cost, infrastructure money installs charging, making it possible for people who wouldn't have been able to afford an EV otherwise to get one if they want and to charge it at the new station that wouldn't otherwise have been built. They're just supposed to kickstart the process, help get things up to a critical mass so that it's self-sustaining. Like a nuclear pile, I suppose (in too many ways to list!).

But that's not exciting enough to shout about and generate a headline or two.

Amara's Law: “We overestimate the impact of technology in the short-term and underestimate the effect in the long run.”

 

[MW1515]

I’m not going to call anyone out by name, but there is plenty of “take your medicine” sentiment peppered throughout this thread, and on the first page alone. People who blame Americans’ slow adoption of EVs on “misinformation” rather than real shortcomings of the current technology. This is the “ramming” I speak of - claiming most Americans are “misinformed” because they’re not interested in EVs yet. I find condescension and tribalism annoying.

One size does not fit all. The current shortcomings are real. They are likely to be moot in another ten years. These are the only points I’ve been trying to make.

I'm happy to hear that you think that the transition to EVs is so inevitable that in 10 years none of the current limitations will matter. And you are probably right that 10s of millions of Americans will be open to buying EVs when it makes more sense for them.

However, I have a feeling that many of us think the future for EVs has not been written yet, and when we hear our friends, neighbors, and/or relatives start reciting a list of things about EVs that are absolutely untrue (that they saw online or from their favorite media source), it reminds us that there are also millions of Americans that would love to see EVs go away forever and have no problem spreading lies in order to get there. You've never spoken to someone that was misinformed about EVs?

I believe most of us here want to live in a world where EVs are not a niche product and there are many affordable (including American-made) options. That is the future we hope will be written, but it is not a certainty yet.

 

[Mirak]

If gas prices were still at the levels seen at the beginning of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and you could still sell your EV for as much (if not more) than when you bought it, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

EV adoption in America will reach its true tipping point when it's the more affordable option relative to gas/oil.

We'll get there. Solar in the long term is much cheaper than extracting and squeezing dinosaurs.

The problem is the sun shines, at most, about 10 hours a day? And quite a bit less than that thanks to weather. And we have nowhere to store that electricity for when the sun doesn’t shine. Solar and wind will remain, at best, supplemental power sources for decades to come.

 

[KevinS]

However, I have a feeling that many of us think the future for EVs has not been written yet, and when we hear our friends, neighbors, and/or relatives start reciting a list of things about EVs that are absolutely untrue (that they saw online or from their favorite media source), it reminds us that there are also millions of Americans that would love to see EVs go away forever and have no problem spreading lies in order to get there. You've never spoken to someone that was misinformed about EVs?

Remember how in the early 2000's if you didn't have a yellow ribbon on the back of the car it meant you were a traitor to your country? Remember when there were supposedly WMD's in Iraq?

If I have learned anything in my years, it's that Americans are very good at strong opinions loosely held, and ones that have been bamboozled despite being given every fact-check and warning to the contrary have no problems getting amnesia about their prior opinions when it becomes embarrassing to them.

 

[KevinS]

The problem is the sun shines, at most, about 10 hours a day? And quite a bit less than that thanks to weather. And we have nowhere to store that electricity for when the sun doesn’t shine. Solar and wind will remain, at best, supplemental power sources for decades to come.

Maybe storage batteries can be invented someday in your world.

 

[Mirak]

I'm happy to hear that you think that the transition to EVs is so inevitable that in 10 years none of the current limitations will matter. And you are probably right that 10s of millions of Americans will be open to buying EVs when it makes more sense for them.

However, I have a feeling that many of us think the future for EVs has not been written yet, and when we hear our friends, neighbors, and/or relatives start reciting a list of things about EVs that are absolutely untrue (that they saw online or from their favorite media source), it reminds us that there are also millions of Americans that would love to see EVs go away forever and have no problem spreading lies in order to get there. You've never spoken to someone that was misinformed about EVs?

I believe most of us here want to live in a world where EVs are not a niche product and there are many affordable (including American-made) options. That is the future we hope will be written, but it is not a certainty yet.

What do you think these folks are misinformed about? The people I talk to seem to know the true limitations of current battery technology. If anything, they don’t fully appreciate those limitations, and I’m happy to tell them.

And when you say “I'm happy to hear that you think that the transition to EVs is so inevitable that in 10 years none of the current limitations will matter” you kind of have that backwards. What I think is that in ten years the current limitations won’t exist, which will make our current teething issues and barriers to transition obsolete. See the difference?

 

[Mirak]

Remember how in the early 2000's if you didn't have a yellow ribbon on the back of the car it meant you were a traitor to your country? Remember when there were supposedly WMD's in Iraq?

If I have learned anything in my years, it's that Americans are very good at strong opinions loosely held, and ones that have been bamboozled despite being given every fact-check and warning to the contrary have no problems getting amnesia about their prior opinions when it becomes embarrassing to them.

I do. I was one of those people. And I’ve learned from that. Never again for me. Sadly, a great many people are doing exactly the same thing now vis a vis Ukraine, BLM, Covid, being “an ally,” those virtue signaling yard signs, etc. etc. Tribalism and stupidity is getting worse, friend, not better.

 

[Mirak]

Maybe storage batteries can be invented someday in your world.

I hope. But that’s the issue, isn’t it?

 

[ARK]

What do you think these folks are misinformed about? The people I talk to seem to know the true limitations of current battery technology. If anything, they don’t fully appreciate those limitations, and I’m happy to tell them.

And when you say “I'm happy to hear that you think that the transition to EVs is so inevitable that in 10 years none of the current limitations will matter” you kind of have that backwards. What I think is that in ten years the current limitations won’t exist, which will make our current teething issues and barriers to transition obsolete. See the difference?

I think it could be a little of both, there are certainly plenty of people who are hesitant about EVs when they would have a better experience owning one.

I see it sort of like with social media. Some older people who would have thought Facebook or Instagram are only for younger people now have it as their favorite pass-time, even though nothing really changed about the experience. I think EVs are the same way, lots of people who would benefit with owning one just need to have the idea out there for a while before coming on board even if EVs never progress beyond exactly where they are today.

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