Reopening America ?

[pbojanoski]

The CDC absolutely screwed up. First they cross-contaminated tested samples with other work they were conducting in the same lab with the virus. As a result there were many false positives. Already a 'no no'. They also wanted to keep all the testing 'in-house' despite the magnitude of the testing required. In actuality Fauci was onboard with this initially and only recently admitted to all the screw ups at the CDC.

With Trump's faith in the ability of private industry to solve problems, he knew that we needed to go to private industry to get things corrected. It was only until these private medical companies got involved that the number of tests increased exponentially. Of course it's still not where it should be, especially in light of the fact that many still argue how many tests should be conducted. Some would actually like to test 325 million people before we truly open for business. If that were the case, the U.S. might as well close up shop, it will never recover. Of course some in this camp have their own agenda, but that's a topic for another thread. However the progress, from where we started, is impressive.

Random testing conducted in Massachusets, showed 1/3 of those tested testing had antibodies for the virus. That gives us a clue that there are many many more exposed to this virus than first thought. These people, unbeknownst to them, possess some degree of immunity. More random testing should give us a better idea as to what the actual numbers might be.

When the dust settles, I'd be willing to bet the % of those truly impacted severely by the virus will be a very small % of those that have been exposed.

I've heard one suggestion that all people that present to a physician for any reason get tested as a routine. That would be about 300,000 to 400,000 tests a day from what I heard. I think that is doable and would give us all a good idea of who is infected. There could be earlier detection and contact tracing to find flareups sooner, especially since it's possible the majority of the people infected never get sick or sick enough to require care. Sound like something worth pondering that could help, but not be ridiculous in its scope. Testing millions and millions per day is probably not going to happen in the short term if ever. Waiting for that would be a fools errand and would be like medieval medicinal bleeding to try to save the patient. The economy will most likely crash before such a testing regiment could be done. 330 million people in the USA. How many of those need to be tested everyday before we can really say who is infected and who is not?

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[pbojanoski]

Quite frankly, I don't think that makes sense at all. The whole point of the mitigation was to minimize the threat to overwhelming hospitals and other medical care. I think we all can agree we have done that. Now, we can loosen some of the lockdowns and start allowing the economy to breath and not suffocate. We will continue to get cases, but the point of the mitigation is not to guarantee the virus is gone, it is to allow the healthcare sector to handle the number of cases. Did the goal posts move while I wasn't looking?

Do we all seriously have no concern for the millions of people out of work and the very real possibility of a worldwide depression or worse? The risk is not being overstated. It isn't if it will happen, but when it will happen if we keep the economy closed.

 

[pbojanoski]

You may not see in the pics. You'd have to read articles about the event to know that.
But as you don't give a rat's ass about Israel (and I assume other events), I can't really help you with that.
I started my earlier comment today noting I should know better than to dive into these discussions which, even when I try to keep comments factual or light, the thread devolves into "I don't give a rat's ass about Israel" or "can anyone else see PPE in the pic?" for no value-added reason. I'll focus on MME topics. Out.

I'm fine with your posts here. Constructive commentary and cool heads are in short supply in these trying times. We need to keep each other positive and focused on what really matters. Keep on keeping on @eager2own.

 

[pbojanoski]

No, peeing in the pool doesn’t have major health consequence. However, your statement makes it appear you don’t understand the highly infectious nature of Covid-19 or how contact careless behavior can reduce productivity. I want to get the country back to work as quickly as we can but I’m not one of those who’ll choose to sacrifice someone else’s elderly parents to open non-essential businesses two weeks faster.

Yes, I’m one of those people who’s wearing a mask when I go to the store. Yes, I feel I have a responsibility to help keep everyone in the community safe through my actions and feel others should as well. Sorry if that doesn’t First your boat.

Not wanting to put words in @eager2own 's mouth, but I think he is saying that what others do can and will have minimal affect on you if you do what you believe is right to protect yourself. We all do that everyday we drive our car, cross the street, whatever. We make decisions on what risks we face and how we will address or avoid those risks. Somebody on a beach in Florida or the capitol in Michigan doesn't matter too much to me. I can't spend my life worrying about what everyone else is doing. I can only focus on what I can do best for me and my family after weighing the risks.

I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday and he said he just assumes everyone he comes in contact with has the coronavirus. That seems like a prudent position right now. Keep yourself as safe as you can. It doesn't mean you have to be a shut in, just do what most know is the right thing to do and likely you will be fine.

 

[Ken7]

I think there are a few things that concern me beyond what we’ve discussed. The tyrannical nature of some of the actions taken by governors & mayors ‘in the interest of the citizenry’ is more than a bit scary to me. I’d think those here whose skin crawled at just the sight of nazi flags would likewise be concerned. Here are just a few:

* Arresting a father in front of his son for having a catch with him in a totally empty park. Really?

* Encouraging your neighbors to rat out people not complying with PPE? Really? Thank you Comrade DeBlasio (that’s one of the nicknames for our esteemed NY mayor). This doesn’t remind you, albeit on a smaller scale, of Nazi Germany when kids were encouraged to rat out their parents who were then, often, never seen again?

* Telling citizens what they can and cannot buy. Telling citizens what activities they can and cannot engage in. It’s OK to go out and have an abortion, but it’s not OK to go out and buy paint, plant seeds, paint your house or go to church or synagogue. Really?

The concern here is that some in power, faced with a crisis, take on powers and authorities that are not only tyrannical in nature, but whose constitutionality is questionable. I’ve heard some constitutional lawyers question this too. Don’t doubt for a minute that some of those in power thoroughly enjoy this new found ability to flex their dictatorial muscles. Others are auditioning for higher office.

I’m sorry, some of this scares me a bit more than the virus.

 

[ChasingCoral]

That's exactly right. You don't take off the parachute until after you land, not a few hundred feet up because it feels like you're moving slowly.

It's quite unfortunately that so many people think the economy is more important than the community. Money is an abstraction, lives are real.

 

[ChasingCoral]

As we get closer to the days when reopening the small shops and business that we
need just what are your HONEST thoughts ? I think workers will be a little scared but
what are they to do ? We need this badly as the economy will only get worst. Are you
willing to go out and shop, eat, and be among people ? Sorry I can't test the waters
at this time. Yea between a rock and a hard place. So this is going to happen soon.
Please share your honest thoughts. We need your input for all of us at this time.

Back to your original question, it's not just what we think or what politicians think:
https://variety.com/2020/film/box-office/movie-theaters-georgia-cannot-reopen-1234585289/

 

[Ken7]

And using the analogy of the parachute, we don't start the economy until every last case is over and not a single further infection is to be seen anywhere in the country. Really? Tell me if that's the plan, because I'll begin to look for another country to move to...assuming I can do that before the looting, rioting and burning begin.

No, there's a sane middle ground to be achieved. This is not an all or nothing scenario as the parachute analogy implies. This has nothing to do with thinking the 'economy is more important than the community'. That's just hyperbole. You're underestimating the health & death ramifications if this shut down goes on. There is absolute certainty there will be additional fatalities occurring if this goes on too long. I'm sure some have occurred already.

 

[Ken7]

Back to your original question, it's not just what we think or what politicians think:
https://variety.com/2020/film/box-office/movie-theaters-georgia-cannot-reopen-1234585289/

All the more reasons to get things underway very soon. It will take time for companies to be operational even after the green light is lit.

 

[Ken7]

I found this amusing. Examples of this kind of hypocrisy abound.

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/04/our-garbage-media.php

 

[ChasingCoral]

Are you suggesting that the huge economic issues and reduced medical care for non-COVID-19 related issues are getting big coverage in the general media? Cable news, websites, and the like the majority of people actually look at? Are there daily stories about how each day of shutdown will create long lasting economic AND health woes?

Yes, in fact these are daily stories. Here are the articles from today's Washington Post, section A, print edition. Why the Post? It's my local paper and the one delivered. It's where I start my news for the day, not where I end it. No, it's not perfect but it serves as an example that these stories are out there -- the answer to your question:

Front page:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/20/oil-barrel-below-zero/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...chains-helped-run-small-business-program-dry/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...855638-831b-11ea-ae26-989cfce1c7c7_story.html

Inside:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...-tens-millions-into-poverty-new-report-warns/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...a3ef24-7eb4-11ea-9040-68981f488eed_story.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/heal...10231a-8324-11ea-a3eb-e9fc93160703_story.html

So, yes, the media is covering the economic and social fallout from this crisis.

 

[ChasingCoral]

I found this amusing. Examples of this kind of hypocrisy abound.

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/04/our-garbage-media.php

I agree Ken7. It's really amazing people fall for the kind of crap that people try to pass off as journalism like that severely biased PowerlineBlog.

 

[Ken7]

Of course Mark, anything that shows there could be another side to a story you'll deride. Anything that shows the hypocrisy of the media, you'll denounce. Why not prove that the examples shown in the article are falsified rather than trashing the article itself? That would be the smart way to prove your point. Otherwise you just sound like the left wing media defending itself.

I know you won't find any examples of media hypocrisy in your beloved Washington Post.

 

[ChasingCoral]

And using the analogy of the parachute, we don't start the economy until every last case is over and not a single further infection is to be seen anywhere in the country. Really? Tell me if that's the plan, because I'll begin to look for another country to move to...assuming I can do that before the looting, rioting and burning begin.

No, there's a sane middle ground to be achieved. This is not an all or nothing scenario as the parachute analogy implies. This has nothing to do with thinking the 'economy is more important than the community'. That's just hyperbole. You're underestimating the health & death ramifications if this shut down goes on. There is absolute certainty there will be additional fatalities occurring if this goes on too long. I'm sure some have occurred already.

Credible sources aren't saying we keep the economy shut down until every last case is over. What we don't want to do is make the problem even worse. That's what they did in St. Louis and Denver in 1918 (figure 3A below from Markel et al 2007 JAMA). By reopening too fast, their second peak in deaths was worse than the first.

The real problem here is a lack of patience being fueled by rabble rousers with political agendas. The folks behind the liberate rallies aren't looking out for the economy, they just know what buttons to push to incite easily swayed masses.

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