NHTSA launches investigation into Tesla Autopilot over emergency responder crashes

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

original source: DOT NHTSA ODI Document

just two of the write-ups: NHTSA launches investigation into Tesla Autopilot crashes, (cnbc.com) Tesla Autopilot investigation: NHTSA probes emergency responder issues (usatoday.com)

yes this is a Mach-E site, but with Blue Cruise coming, it's reasonable to keep an eye on what is going on in the industry with ADAS.

this is, in my opinion, a very bad thing - 11 vehicle crashes involving first responder vehicles. That said, it's reasonable to ask "what's the relative rate of these crashes versus 'normal'"? In other words, is the Tesla system doing worse than expected here? There's not enough information here to know... we know that the Tesla system is objectively more dangerous in general than human drivers (eg Report 20190208 (safetyresearch.net) :

​

Based on the data for crash rate numerators and denominators shown in Figure 1, the resulting calculations reveal a 59 percent increase in the airbag deployment crash rate from 0.76 per million miles of travel to 1.21 per million miles of travel following the installation of Autosteer. As explained below, this result is particularly important because it is the only vehicle cohort in the study with complete information for both before and after Autosteer crash rate calculations. Before and after comparisons of the resulting crash rates are unbiased by missing data for exposure mileage because there are no missing data in this subset of the data. This finding is the just the opposite of that claimed by NHTSA for the larger set of vehicles they studied​

).. but we don't know about these specifics.

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[ZuleMME]

Not paying attention while driving is always dangerous. Elon's marketing team would say AI makes the Tesla safer since it's helping to pay attention for you. The problem they don't want brought up is the illusion to drivers that it's got things under control which makes you look away for longer then 3 seconds. Generally speaking you never want to look away, but a second here or there, kids in the back screaming, etc etc everyone at some point looks away for just a second. But if the car seems to have things under control you might think 5 to 10 seconds was ok. Every second is a exponential increase in likelyhood something will happen that you didn't see coming.

That said, this investigation sounds like it's something in particular where Tesla's are aiming for vehicles with flashing lights? Will be interesting. I'm a big fan of level 2 driving. I ran a Openpilot in my Lexus RX450H for over a year before Toyota/Lexus pushed me away from ever driving there crap again. But even though it allowed for wonderful hands free driving you always need to be alert and never look away for over a second.

 

[Mach-Lee]

One way BlueCruise (and Super Cruise) is better than Tesla is that it requires driver monitoring with a camera. If you're not paying attention to the road, it will error out and slow down.

IMO I think it could almost be considered negligent that Tesla didn't have this feature for a very long time and allowed drivers to not pay attention. I think they just recently added it, not sure if it's currently required on all autosteer cars or not. I think it would have prevented these accidents where they slammed into a police roadblock.

 

[timbop]

IMO I think it could almost be considered negligent that Tesla didn't have this feature for a very long time and allowed drivers to not pay attention.

IMO it is FAR worse than that: Tesla overtly calls the cars "fully self driving" and fosters the illusion that the car can indeed drive itself. IMO that is more than negligence on Tesla's part but slips into fraud territory. The CEO can't scream "look the car drives itself more safely than a human", and then put tiny fine print at the bottom that says "but you should pay attention anyway because we refuse to accept liability".

Unfortunately it also likely means systems like supercruise and bluecruise may get heavily legislated/banned as well.

 

[one5460]

If a driver chooses to ignore the very clearly marked warnings in the manual and when the feature is turned on in the Autopilot menu section, then they deserve the possible outcome.

No CEO marketing speak or catchy name should substitute for common sense. This is the beauty of Natural Selection: it weeds out those who lack basic everyday intelligence. Unfortunately, sometimes, innocent people are involved.

 

[timbop]

If a driver chooses to ignore the very clearly marked warnings in the manual and when the feature is turned on in the Autopilot menu section, then they deserve the possible outcome.

No CEO marketing speak or catchy name should substitute for common sense. This is the beauty of Natural Selection: it weeds out those who lack basic everyday intelligence. Unfortunately, sometimes, innocent people are involved.

That "but you need to pay attention" is done with a wink and a nudge by the "technoking", and you and I both know it.

People shouldn't drink and drive, but they do. As with those who think their self driving car can actually drive itself, the results often kill innocent people.

If a bartender can be responsible for not serving people, then a car company's "self driving car" that can't really drive itself needs to ensure someone is actually in the driver's seat, awake, and paying attention.

 

[one5460]

That "but you need to pay attention" is done with a wink and a nudge by the "technoking", and you and I both know it.

I don't see it that way at all. Especially when Darwin's face is printed all over it.

People shouldn't drink and drive, but they do. As with those who think their self driving car can actually drive itself, the results often kill innocent people.

If we're going down that road, let's ban alcohol first and foremost, then weed, prescription drugs, get rid of any kind entertainment in the console and on and on. All of these have clear warnings and have known to cause accidents and / or death at the hands of morons. They can be taken to jail as well if caught while driving. Does that stop those intent on breaking the law or not using common sense? Nope.

No different with Autopilot. Do you think Blue Cruise would be infallible? Do you think it will always, without fail, do what it's supposed to in time to prevent an accident? Do you think a person who is buzzed, but seem attentive could not cause or be in an accident with Blue Cruise on? Who do we blame then?

If a bartender can be responsible for not serving people, then a car company's "self driving car" that can't really drive itself needs to ensure someone is actually in the driver's seat, awake, and paying attention.

Unless it's obvious, a bartender won't always know who's buzzed after just 2 drinks, or who came in buzzed, had a drink and got right in their cars. Him or her not serving an obvious drunk isn't doing much to help or change the fact that quite a few people will drive legally drunk and they can do nothing about it.

Also, are they also responsible for the drunk that stops, buys and opens a 6-pack on the way home?

 

[ab13]

If a driver chooses to ignore the very clearly marked warnings in the manual and when the feature is turned on in the Autopilot menu section, then they deserve the possible outcome.

No CEO marketing speak or catchy name should substitute for common sense. This is the beauty of Natural Selection: it weeds out those who lack basic everyday intelligence. Unfortunately, sometimes, innocent people are involved.

The software is Beta, what other company releases Beta for years to untrained people. That's much of the issue. All other companies are testing the same things but with their own fleets and employees.

 

[RedStallion]

If a driver chooses to ignore the very clearly marked warnings in the manual and when the feature is turned on in the Autopilot menu section, then they deserve the possible outcome.

No CEO marketing speak or catchy name should substitute for common sense. This is the beauty of Natural Selection: it weeds out those who lack basic everyday intelligence. Unfortunately, sometimes, innocent people are involved.

Really? And what is this for? -- If not for misleading the young and dumb I find no other explanation.

 

[one5460]

The software is Beta, what other company releases Beta for years to untrained people. That's much of the issue. All other companies are testing the same things but with their own fleets and employees.

In their current state, the non-geofenced driver assist packages available today are all level 2 and are beta with the drivers as beta testers. Blue Cruise will get OTA updates (according to Ford)over time with improvements and new features. Whether they call it beta or not won't really matter. Issues will arise and they'll hopefully have fixes for them.

I'm not making excuses for Tesla, just being frank. Elon has made level 3-5 promises for years which aren't going to happen anytime soon. Robotaxis aren't happening with the current hardware. He knows it. The best they'll have is level 2 for the time being. Maybe level 3 at some point in the future. Level 4 and above is a ways away.

With every level 2 system, regardless of manufacturer, the driver is the key to safety.

 

[one5460]

Really? And what is this for? -- If not for misleading the young and dumb I find no other explanation.

Marketing? This package isn't available for public consumption yet. Unless you're an official FSD beta tester, some of the more advanced maneuvers (left / right turns at intersections) in this video cannot be accomplished with the current software even if someone tries.

Who/ what can help the young and dumb? Maybe time? I've done dumb things when I was younger, things I wouldn't dare try now. And autopilot was only a dream then. My point is, there's always going to be something to get someone dumb in trouble. They get in trouble because they're dumb. No other reason.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

Marketing? This package isn't available for public consumption yet. Unless you're an official FSD beta tester, some of the more advanced maneuvers (left / right turns at intersections) in this video cannot be accomplished with the current software even if someone tries.

Who/ what can help the young and dumb? Maybe time? I've done dumb things when I was younger, things I wouldn't dare try now. And autopilot was only a dream then. My point is, there's always going to be something to get someone dumb in trouble. They get in trouble because they're dumb. No other reason.

This does an excellent job of completely blaming the user when in reality there's a shared responsibility here, as much as Teslastans like to pretend otherwise.

Let's talk about why.

First, the system is available to literally every Tesla with the hardware now, although it's more limited in the general case: With Full Self-Driving available on demand, be wary of any and all Teslas (mashable.com) :

​

Non-beta users in FSD mode still have to hold the steering wheel, and can only engage in Full Self-Driving on main thoroughfares and highways.​

"Hold the steering wheel" is wrong - the correct statement would be "convince the torque sensor they are holding the wheel", which is why this exists:

Steering Wheel Weight - Tesland

All the talk about warnings etc. - nobody will read those. Nobody. Including you. You are lying if you say you have. Tell me you've read them all you want, I won't believe you, because I live in reality. Do you use a smartphone, or Windows, or MacOS, or a smart TV, or really any technology? Of course you do, you're reading this. Did you read all of the license documentation? Did you read the terms of use ("Terms of Service" to be exact) for this very web site? Ok, so that argument is nonsense, just on a factual basis.

The talk about limited access ... I am part of the experiment, because there's Teslas around me running it. Did I agree to that testing? Did the first responders in the the 11 cases of vehicle crashes under investigation here? No, of course not. So it's not really "limited" is it, since literally every vehicle that is around a Tesla running the software is involved in the test, and by the way, as I pointed out above, everybody has some form of it today if they have the hardware, and I do drive on highways... meaning I'm part of the test... yay me!

"But you can't stop a user from doing something dumb!" No, but you can try. Why no driver monitoring system until very recently? (Hint: Money and selling. It costs money to do it, and why do it if the system is so great, right?)

Take under 54 minutes of your day to watch this, it's worth it:

Learn how Tesla owns these crashes because of how they sell a knowingly dangerous product (remember: it's a fact that Autopilot is much more likely to cause a crash than a human driver, no matter what lies Tesla says based on a broken early NHTSA report). Learn how despite all the official warnings, the company (and more specifically, Elon) sells the system as more capable than it is. Learn that the argument that "we don't have to monitor people at all because we're better than them anyway" is an argument Elon has specifically made - you can see the video for yourself.

"But BlueCruise/SuperCruise/BluesClues!" isn't an answer either. There's problems there too, and I guarantee we'll see a BlueCruise accident at some point, and I guarantee within 60 minutes of that news, we'll see Teslastans changing their argument from "you can't blame Tesla, it's all on the driver" to "see, Ford's just as bad as Tesla, you can't complain about Tesla any longer!" I guarantee this so much that I am willing to bet on it. Here's the penny I'll bet:

Of course, I'm gambling with just a penny.

I'm not gambling with the lives of first responders.

 

[Mach-Lee]

Tesla fans: Look! Autopilot is amazing and saved his life!

Rest of us: Why the hell did it take 10 km to come to a stop when the driver was completely passed out?

People passing out behind the wheel is a real situation that needs to be addressed.

 

[JamieGeek]

Tesla fans: Look! Autopilot is amazing and saved his life!

Rest of us: Why the hell did it take 10 km to come to a stop when the driver was completely passed out?

People passing out behind the wheel is a real situation that needs to be addressed.

If the driver was driving in 1-P mode when s/he passed out and their foot slipped off the pedal then the car would slow to a stop (sure might be right in the lane its in but it would come to a stop).

 

[trutolife27]

This does an excellent job of completely blaming the user when in reality there's a shared responsibility here, as much as Teslastans like to pretend otherwise.

Let's talk about why.

First, the system is available to literally every Tesla with the hardware now, although it's more limited in the general case: With Full Self-Driving available on demand, be wary of any and all Teslas (mashable.com) :

​

Non-beta users in FSD mode still have to hold the steering wheel, and can only engage in Full Self-Driving on main thoroughfares and highways.​

"Hold the steering wheel" is wrong - the correct statement would be "convince the torque sensor they are holding the wheel", which is why this exists:

Steering Wheel Weight - Tesland

All the talk about warnings etc. - nobody will read those. Nobody. Including you. You are lying if you say you have. Tell me you've read them all you want, I won't believe you, because I live in reality. Do you use a smartphone, or Windows, or MacOS, or a smart TV, or really any technology? Of course you do, you're reading this. Did you read all of the license documentation? Did you read the terms of use ("Terms of Service" to be exact) for this very web site? Ok, so that argument is nonsense, just on a factual basis.

The talk about limited access ... I am part of the experiment, because there's Teslas around me running it. Did I agree to that testing? Did the first responders in the the 11 cases of vehicle crashes under investigation here? No, of course not. So it's not really "limited" is it, since literally every vehicle that is around a Tesla running the software is involved in the test, and by the way, as I pointed out above, everybody has some form of it today if they have the hardware, and I do drive on highways... meaning I'm part of the test... yay me!

"But you can't stop a user from doing something dumb!" No, but you can try. Why no driver monitoring system until very recently? (Hint: Money and selling. It costs money to do it, and why do it if the system is so great, right?)

Take under 54 minutes of your day to watch this, it's worth it:

Learn how Tesla owns these crashes because of how they sell a knowingly dangerous product (remember: it's a fact that Autopilot is much more likely to cause a crash than a human driver, no matter what lies Tesla says based on a broken early NHTSA report). Learn how despite all the official warnings, the company (and more specifically, Elon) sells the system as more capable than it is. Learn that the argument that "we don't have to monitor people at all because we're better than them anyway" is an argument Elon has specifically made - you can see the video for yourself.

"But BlueCruise/SuperCruise/BluesClues!" isn't an answer either. There's problems there too, and I guarantee we'll see a BlueCruise accident at some point, and I guarantee within 60 minutes of that news, we'll see Teslastans changing their argument from "you can't blame Tesla, it's all on the driver" to "see, Ford's just as bad as Tesla, you can't complain about Tesla any longer!" I guarantee this so much that I am willing to bet on it. Here's the penny I'll bet:

Of course, I'm gambling with just a penny.

I'm not gambling with the lives of first responders.

winner winner

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