NHTSA launches investigation into Tesla Autopilot over emergency responder crashes

[trutolife27]

Anything can be abused or used wrong. Nothing can prepare auto anything for the unseen or unknowing. Just like in our like.

Nothing was able to prepare me for the daily new tesla stans that come here.

My daughter is playing a game called frost punk. In short, it's an end of the world game strategy and the world is ice cold have to find a way to build and survive. You may be wondering why I bring this up. One of the cities that collapsed that she ran into was called TESLA and part of their downfall was a crazy leader. lol, I shit you not it's in the game.

Anyways until there are roads for self-driving only like for semi, it will always be a changing game.

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[one5460]

All the talk about warnings etc. - nobody will read those. Nobody. Including you. You are lying if you say you have.

People that choose not to are the root cause of the problems and, IMO, shoulder almost all the responsibility for any crashes as a result aside from a system fault.

And I disagree about 'nobody' reading the warnings. I know about them because I've read them. They clearly say Autopilot in its current form requires active driver monitoring. It even says it on the purchasing web page.

Is Elon irresponsible for making misleading statements? Sure, but that's no excuse for choosing not to read the warnings. That's where we differ. I put the most weight in personal responsibility and much less in what the media or some VIP says.

In cabin camera monitoring is a good idea and I'm glad they decided to do it later than never. But I believe in a dual approach that include torque sensing as well. What happens if the steering assist suddenly does something it shouldn't. Not having hands on the wheel means less time to react, especially if you're sitting back in the seat relaxing.

The cabin camera also does not stop someone who's intent on not paying attention. It warns at least 2 times I believe before deciding to stop. During those times a crash can happen.

Where I see it being very useful is in a medical emergency or severe intoxication where someone passes out. It will recognize this condition quicker than any other method and react accordingly. A big nod to Blue Cruise there.

And BTW, I'm not saying Autopilot is better than Blue Cruise or the best thing out there. What they have in common is an active supervision requirement.

 

[ab13]

In their current state, the non-geofenced driver assist packages available today are all level 2 and are beta with the drivers as beta testers.

This statement is only about Tesla I assume? BTW, Honda has level 3 certification in Japan done with the Japanese government, for stop and go highway traffic. Companies do software release processes to test and verify before a release version. This will be documented within an organization, and from a legal standpoint it makes a difference.

That means in a vehicle I have with released, not Beta, software I am a user of the software not a tester. The number of people who test software as a career or are trained for that is only a tiny fraction of people who drive cars. In the past I have been paid to review the software interface for some basic software (though I don't work in software), so I'm not too interested to pay to test unreleased software in a moving vehicle.

 

[one5460]

This statement is only about Tesla I assume? BTW, Honda has level 3 certification in Japan done with the Japanese government, for stop and go highway traffic. Companies do software release processes to test and verify before a release version. This will be documented within an organization, and from a legal standpoint it makes a difference.

That means in a vehicle I have with released, not Beta, software I am a user of the software not a tester. The number of people who test software as a career or are trained for that is only a tiny fraction of people who drive cars. In the past I have been paid to review the software interface for some basic software (though I don't work in software), so I'm not too interested to pay to test unreleased software in a moving vehicle.

I can't speak for what's going on in Japan. And from your description, it's very limited in scope: stop-n-go highway. I would hesitate to call that Level 3 even though it might technically fit the SAE description. The Honda Sensing here in the US is very basic.

And no, I'm not talking about Tesla only. Can you name a level 3 tech (in the US) outside of a geofenced system?

As for testing, It is near impossible to test the vehicle's response to every possible situation that might occur on the road. Even in a geofenced location, accidents can happen. So yes, we are all beta testers for even basic adaptive cruise control systems.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

winner winner

cool that I get a chicken dinner since I can't spend the penny to buy one now.

 

[ab13]

I can't speak for what's going on in Japan. And from your description, it's very limited in scope: stop-n-go highway. I would hesitate to call that Level 3 even though it might technically fit the SAE description. The Honda Sensing here in the US is very basic.

It would be a very useful feature for people who get stuck in stop and go, some people deal with that very regularly, 30 minutes+ to go 3-5 miles. I see this happens on a daily basis for some directions of traffic.

And no, I'm not talking about Tesla only. Can you name a level 3 tech (in the US) outside of a geofenced system?

Those systems are being tested by manufacturers and startups, mainly trucking companies. So they are not released because they all know it needs further testing.

As for testing, It is near impossible to test the vehicle's response to every possible situation that might occur on the road. Even in a geofenced location, accidents can happen. So yes, we are all beta testers for even basic adaptive cruise control systems.

Do a search for Tesla phantom braking, tons and tons of videos and comments of complaints about the system braking for shadowy features the system sees. Some videos show it happen multiple times in one drive. The dynamic cruise control on my vehicle that is almost 5 years old almost never has this issue, possibly 5-10 times in 40k miles. Seems to be far more consistent than the Beta Tesla software. That's the difference between released and unreleased software, consistency and robust operation.

 

[one5460]

It would be a very useful feature for people who get stuck in stop and go, some people deal with that very regularly, 30 minutes+ to go 3-5 miles. I see this happens on a daily basis for some directions of traffic.

The current systems available work quite well for stop-n-go. AP is great and from the demos of Blue Cruise, it seems it will be great as well. Yeah, you still have to pay attention as you should, but the burden on the driver is reduced.

Those systems are being tested by manufacturers and startups, mainly trucking companies. So they are not released because they all know it needs further testing.

Yes, and it'll be a long time before we can put total trust in driverless cars hence the reason remote controlled systems are being considered as a stop-gap:

Halo's driverless cars in Las Vegas arrive via remote control - Axios

I suspect even when rolled out, 'fully autonomous' taxis will have some sort of secondary monitoring, most likely by a human. Eventually, as more and more cars become automated, true self driving cars will become a real thing.

Do a search for Tesla phantom braking, tons and tons of videos and comments of complaints about the system braking for shadowy features the system sees. Some videos show it happen multiple times in one drive. The dynamic cruise control on my vehicle that is almost 5 years old almost never has this issue, possibly 5-10 times in 40k miles. Seems to be far more consistent than the Beta Tesla software. That's the difference between released and unreleased software, consistency and robust operation.

What system are you using? I know about phantom braking. It seems to be a fairly tough issue to completely eradicate and Teslas aren't the only vehicles affected. Honda and Nissan drivers have had similar complaints. Teslas are popular and all come with AP, so there's no surprise they make the news often. Still not an excuse though, and it's something they'll need to improve for people to put more trust in AP.

 

[ab13]

The current systems available work quite well for stop-n-go. AP is great and from the demos of Blue Cruise, it seems it will be great as well. Yeah, you still have to pay attention as you should, but the burden on the driver is reduced.

There is a big benefit to level 2 systems, but when people and manufacturers confuse them as to which systems are which, the average person won't understand. Level 2 systems must always be monitored, at level 3 it is hands off and eyes away until the system requests

takeover.

Yes, and it'll be a long time before we can put total trust in driverless cars hence the reason remote controlled systems are being considered as a stop-gap:

Halo's driverless cars in Las Vegas arrive via remote control - Axios

I suspect even when rolled out, 'fully autonomous' taxis will have some sort of secondary monitoring, most likely by a human. Eventually, as more and more cars become automated, true self driving cars will become a real thing.

I agree, I would expect 5G to allow remote monitoring and possible control. However, Waymo, Cruise, AutoX, have permits to drive without a driver in the driver seat. Those are the leading edge.

What system are you using? I know about phantom braking. It seems to be a fairly tough issue to completely eradicate and Teslas aren't the only vehicles affected. Honda and Nissan drivers have had similar complaints. Teslas are popular and all come with AP, so there's no surprise they make the news often. Still not an excuse though, and it's something they'll need to improve for people to put more trust in AP.

The vehicle is a Rav4 hybrid. I searched for Rav4 phantom braking and couldn't find anything. Perhaps there are some comments but apparently minimal info considering there are millions on the road. The Econ mode needs to be turned off for the system to work decently. This model is only lane keeping, but that has nothing to do with braking.

I also found this breakdown of the C-HR, which probably uses the same system. It noted that "While most major automakers are adopting image processing technology from Mobileye, Toyota, Mercedes, and Subaru are developing their own original technology jointly with suppliers."

https://www.marklines.com/en/report_all/rep1696_201803



Here is a write up from a former NASA lead scientist, he finds good things and bad things about Tesla's system. For the average person who knows little about how cars or computers work, the noted issue are big obstacles.

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/08/2...-3-today-the-amazingly-good-the-bad-the-ugly/

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