Model S Plaid & Mach E Rt 1 Roadtrip by MKBHD

[dbsb3233]

Ok, so let's say you made a stop in Albany and there was a problem, now what?

Now you're talking a different thing. Sure, anytime a station is down you're relegated to trying to find a backup. No charging network is so extensive right now that there's ubiquitous backup options everywhere. Even the Supercharger network. It's why we need more chargers, and we need them all to be universal (single standard) for maximum coverage.

The point is, with better planning (which is highly prudent for a lengthy BEV road trip), they'd have stopped at the Albany EA and been just fine.

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[dbsb3233]

And I do think we’ll get there. There’s too much government money for Elon to leave on the table to keep the SuperChargers walled off. An adapter and software update (to the chargers I presume?) should make it all happen. We’ll pay for it but who cares? Most of us charge at home and only need these other chargers on road trips.

Yeah, I have little doubt it'll eventually work it's way there. I suspect it was no coincidence that Tesla announced that was gonna happen (sometime?) shortly after $billions was being proposed subsidies for networks that served multiple manufacturers.

Plus it's just simple common sense that all EVs migrate to a single standard connector (obviously CCS at this point). Be interesting to see just when Tesla makes the switch. Not just for opening up Superchargers, but also for switching to CCS connectors on new vehicles. Adapters are fine for get by during a transition period, but they make no sense as a long term solution.

 

[RockwallRick]

My first Road Trip EA stop was a complete bust! Both of the 350KW chargers were down and the 150KW chargers would start up but then shut down. On top of that the food was bad at the Steak n Shake!

 

[one5460]

He's referring to "in total". Sure, proprietary can be nice for the people within that proprietary universe (by keeping other customers out), but for all BEV owners in total, it's worse because it reduces choices and options overall. If half the chargers only work exclusively for one type of BEV, and the other half for for another, then people only have half of all chargers available to them, resulting in less coverage. That's a bad thing.

Right now it's great for Tesla because they get to use both (all the Tesla locations plus one plug at every EA location). They get nearly full coverage. While all CCS (and CHAdeMO) users are limited. That's bad on the whole. The universal "gas station" model is where we need to get to.

CCS and CHAdeMO are limited because the other manufacturers were slow to invest in those networks. Their short sightedness came back to bite. It has absolutely nothing to do with Tesla. Tesla was a small up and upcoming company. Yes, they were among the first, but they chose to cater to their own customers. Even if they adopted the CCS standard, it doesn't mean they could not keep people out of their network.

Tesla owns their own network. That's the reason they can provide a better experience for their customers as they have total control. The connector is just a small part of the equation. The investment that Tesla made paid off. The other manufacturers seem to want to stick their hands in the cookie jar without contributing.

Yes, ultimately having 1 standard, open network for everyone will be the best situation, but that would take cooperation from everyone. Not just Tesla.

Ford, and other EV giants need to get together to make their compatible networks more reliable. Why not start with EA and invest more in their infrastructure? There is already a collaboration between Ford and EA, but obviously more work needs to be done.

 

[one5460]

Now you're talking a different thing. Sure, anytime a station is down you're relegated to trying to find a backup. No charging network is so extensive right now that there's ubiquitous backup options everywhere. Even the Supercharger network. It's why we need more chargers, and we need them all to be universal (single standard) for maximum coverage.

The point is, with better planning (which is highly prudent for a lengthy BEV road trip), they'd have stopped at the Albany EA and been just fine.

The point I was making was even though there were others chargers available, they or most were down or gave errors. So a bad charger in Albany could have turned worse if the alternate chargers were also problematic which, as we saw, was possible.

Having more reliable chargers is a no brainer, but also having that status info for the customer is crucial.

 

[dbsb3233]

CCS and CHAdeMO are limited because the other manufacturers were slow to invest in those networks.

You're talking about trying to lay blame somewhere. I'm not. I'm simply saying where we need to go. It's always messy getting there in the infancy period. Just like VHS and Betamax. CCS will be the standard just like VHS became the standard. Doesn't mean Sony was wrong to develop Betamax, or that Tesla was wrong to develop their own connector. Just means they'll end up needing to adapt because CCS became the standard.

 

[dbsb3233]

The point I was making was even though there were others chargers available, they or most were down or gave errors. So a bad charger in Albany could have turned worse if the alternate chargers were also problematic which, as we saw, was possible.

Having more reliable chargers is a no brainer, but also having that status info for the customer is crucial.

Of course. Just like if a Supercharger were down.

I think we've all been in agreement here that active notification of charger status is a positive thing. That's a no-brainer.

That's a much harder task when coordinating many 3rd party networks rather than just your own proprietary one, of course. (Which Tesla will have to deal with at some point too.)

 

[DYohn]

If I was a Shell or Chevron executive right now, I'd be making a deal with a charging provider and rolling out to my stations over the next few years.

 

[one5460]

Of course. Just like if a Supercharger were down.

Except if a Supercharger went down, other Tesla drivers would know to avoid it and the likelihood of the other Superchargers working are much higher. And if luck would have it they're not, that info would still be out there for other Tesla drivers to see.

I think we've all been in agreement here that active notification of charger status is a positive thing. That's a no-brainer.

On a network with less than stellar reliability, it is critical.

That's a much harder task when coordinating many 3rd party networks rather than just your own proprietary one, of course. (Which Tesla will have to deal with at some point too.)

Yes, you're right, that's why they (Ford, etc) should start with a bigger network such as EA first, and work towards getting them as reliable or better than the competition.

 

[Scrannel]

So... Tesla didn't create a proprietary charging interface for 2021, they did it back in 2012 when no one knew how things were going to shake out. A little research would show that. Ford needs to aggressively help sort EA, which as I understand it, is a semi-mess because there are three partners involved and stepping up to fix shit has been a problem.

Most over-the-road tests have been traditionally anti-Tesla, as a matter of fact. One of the first "road tests" of a Model S was by a major publication and they concluded it was a disaster to road-trip the car. They, basically, could not reach the predicted SC and just ran out of power. What the publication didn't realize was Tesla's have a "flight data recorder" on board. This showed the driver intentionally deviated from the route, then when he got near the SC station -- with power to spare -- he drove in circles around a parking lot until he ran out of power.

 

[one5460]

You're talking about trying to lay blame somewhere. I'm not. I'm simply saying where we need to go. It's always messy getting there in the infancy period. Just like VHS and Betamax. CCS will be the standard just like VHS became the standard. Doesn't mean Sony was wrong to develop Betamax, or that Tesla was wrong to develop their own connector. Just means they'll end up needing to adapt because CCS became the standard.

You said:

Right now it's great for Tesla because they get to use both (all the Tesla locations plus one plug at every EA location). They get nearly full coverage. While all CCS (and CHAdeMO) users are limited.

And I explained why CCS and CHAdeMO were limited. It came across like you were blaming Tesla for that.

 

[dbsb3233]

You said:


And I explained why CCS and CHAdeMO were limited. It came across like you were blaming Tesla for that.

Nope. Just stating that that's the situation as it currently stands.

 

[dbsb3233]

Except if a Supercharger went down, other Tesla drivers would know to avoid it and the likelihood of the other Superchargers working are much higher. And if luck would have it they're not, that info would still be out there for other Tesla drivers to see.

I already addressed that. Anyone's chargers can go down. That's why having active notification of charger status is a good thing. Not sure why you're looping back to something we all agree on and I explicitly stated as such. ?

Yes, you're right, that's why they (Ford, etc) should start with a bigger network such as EA first, and work towards getting them as reliable or better than the competition.

You mean exclude themselves from being able to use all the other networks?? No, that would make zero sense. Limiting options for their customers is not a good thing.

Plus, Ford (and GM, and VW, and Kia, and Hyundia, and Volvo, and Rivian, and... well, you get the point) doesn't "get" 3rd party charging networks to work more dependably (time will do that). You've got the model all wrong. The goal is 100% of EVs (regardless of manufacturer) to be compatible with 100% of the chargers (regardless of network). Tesla will probably be the last holdout to that (both for vehicles and charging network), but it would be going backwards for an auto manufacturer to try and build or run their own private charging network at this point. Ford can't "get" EA to be even better because it's not their company. Nor is Chargepoint, or EVgo, or any of the others.

Now, they might partner with them, and even throw some investment money their way. Along with many other auto manufacturers. But that's far from the same thing as you're suggesting. Ford doesn't run or control EA.

 

[dbsb3233]

If I was a Shell or Chevron executive right now, I'd be making a deal with a charging provider and rolling out to my stations over the next few years.

Gas stations frequently aren't good locations for chargers. It's a different paradigm for usage.

Sometimes there's overlap, yes. Like say, a travel plaza along the interstate. Those often have restaurants and stores combined with a gas station. That's a good charger location - not because its a gas station - but because there's restaurants and stores present at a highway exit along a travel route.

Because EV charging takes much longer than gas filling, the existence of other services (to kill time at) is the more important factor. Whether gas happens to be there too or not is irrelevant.

 

[SpacePony]

Except if a Supercharger went down, other Tesla drivers would know to avoid it and the likelihood of the other Superchargers working are much higher.

if a charging station is reported as being inoperative, the Ford system will also avoid it (won’t add it automatically as a charging stop). Again, Ford is shackled by how real-time and accurately the charging providers report their data.

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