Model S Plaid & Mach E Rt 1 Roadtrip by MKBHD

[one5460]

You mean exclude themselves from being able to use all the other networks?? No, that would make zero sense. Limiting options for their customers is not a good thing.

??? How is Ford investing in EA going to prevent a Mach-E owner from using another network? Not following this line of reasoning.

Plus, Ford (and GM, and VW, and Kia, and Hyundia, and Volvo, and Rivian, and... well, you get the point) doesn't "get" 3rd party charging networks to work more dependably (time will do that).

No, time AND money will do that. If you're OK with them playing the waiting game, then don't complain about coverage, or broken chargers.

Now, they might partner with them, and even throw some investment money their way. Along with many other auto manufacturers.

lol, well, that's how Ford (and the other manufacturers)will 'get' EA to be a better network. Or any other for that matter. It's not rocket science.

Just leaving it up to 'time' to take care of expansion and reliability is the reason they're in the position they are now.

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[one5460]

if a charging station is reported as being inoperative, the Ford system will also avoid it (won’t add it automatically as a charging stop). Again, Ford is shackled by how real-time and accurately the charging providers report their data.

Yes, well that's what I'm getting at if you read my previous posts. If the status info is not accurate or timely, it's almost useless. Hence the reason I brought up the idea of Ford taking the initiative to help improve this. It's nice that the built-in Nav has that ability, but it's a garbage in, garbage out situation.

 

[DYohn]

Gas stations frequently aren't good locations for chargers. It's a different paradigm for usage.

Sometimes there's overlap, yes. Like say, a travel plaza along the interstate. Those often have restaurants and stores combined with a gas station. That's a good charger location - not because its a gas station - but because there's restaurants and stores present at a highway exit along a travel route.

Because EV charging takes much longer than gas filling, the existence of other services (to kill time at) is the more important factor. Whether gas happens to be there too or not is irrelevant.

Of course. But they would be fools to not try and cash in as EV adoption grows and gasoline consumption drops. The time to plan for that is now, on the sharp point of the spear.

 

[dbsb3233]

??? How is Ford investing in EA going to prevent a Mach-E owner from using another network? Not following this line reasoning.

When you said "start with a bigger network such as EA first" it sounded like you meant build their EVs to work on that exclusive network (i.e. the Tesla model). Your reply make it clear that isn't what you meant though. And instead refers to "getting" EA to work better. Which (along with the rest of your reply) returns us to EA being a 3rd party company that Ford doesn't own or control.

EA is a separate business. So are the other charging networks, similar to how Exxon and Shell and Valero sell refueling services to ICE vehicle driver. You seem to be stuck on the Tesla model where they own both - the EV manufacturing end AND their own proprietary charging network for them. Everyone else doesn't work that way. Ford can't just "get" EA to be more dependable.

And frankly, they don't have much further to go anyway. I've done nearly 40 EA charges are most have been perfect, while some of had quirks but still allowed me to leave with a charge. Tesla has similar issues too in their early years. They learned and improved. So will EA. It's getting better every year.

 

[dbsb3233]

Of course. But they would be fools to not try and cash in as EV adoption grows and gasoline consumption drops. The time to plan for that is now, on the sharp point of the spear.

For the locations where it's an appropriate fit, sure.

EV charging is a money loser though, and likely will be for years. Because it takes 10x longer than a gas refuel, the customer throughput is much lower. Compounded further by 90-95% of charging occurring at home/work instead of a retail station. That means it won't draw anywhere near the foot traffic that a gas station does. As such, I think the business case reverses -- it's no longer the gas station that generates a draw for the convenience store (as it works now), the store or restaurant has to be able to stand on it's own and generate it's own traffic. That's why we see chargers often going into existing parking lots of Walmarts and Targets and other shopping/restaurant centers. The gas station model doesn't really translate well in most cases.

 

[DYohn]

For the locations where it's an appropriate fit, sure.

EV charging is a money loser though, and likely will be for years. Because it takes 10x longer than a gas refuel, the customer throughput is much lower. Compounded further by 90-95% of charging occurring at home/work instead of a retail station. That means it won't draw anywhere near the foot traffic that a gas station does. As such, I think the business case reverses -- it's no longer the gas station that generates a draw for the convenience store (as it works now), the store or restaurant has to be able to stand on it's own and generate it's own traffic. That's why we see chargers often going into existing parking lots of Walmarts and Targets and other shopping/restaurant centers. The gas station model doesn't really translate well in most cases.

Right now, maybe not. But it is very early days.

 

[one5460]

EA is a separate business. So are the other charging networks, similar to how Exxon and Shell and Valero sell refueling services to ICE vehicle driver. You seem to be stuck on the Tesla model where they own both - the EV manufacturing end AND their own proprietary charging network for them. Everyone else doesn't work that way. Ford can't just "get" EA to be more dependable.

I understand they are a separate business. That does not mean Ford can't investment in them.

And frankly, they don't have much further to go anyway. I've done nearly 40 EA charges are most have been perfect, while some of had quirks but still allowed me to leave with a charge. Tesla has similar issues too in their early years. They learned and improved. So will EA. It's getting better every year.

Location obviously matters which some people having completely opposite experiences to others.

Overall though, EA's reputation among EV drivers can be better. JD Power had them ranking almost last in their public charging study.

 

[dbsb3233]

Right now, maybe not. But it is very early days.

Volume will increase as BEVs grow, yes. Making it a bit of a draw in some places (like between-city travel routes). But 90%+ of charging will still take place at home/work/etc. That means even if BEVs become 95% of the vehicles on the road, the retail charging volume is still less than 10% of what takes place at gas stations now.

 

[dbsb3233]

Location obviously matters which some people having completely opposite experiences to others.

Overall though, EA's reputation among EV drivers can be better. JD Power had them ranking almost last in their public charging study.

Of course. It's still an industry in relative infancy and there's gonna be a lot of growing pains along the way.

EV chargers face a much higher criticism when they have problems than most other products because (a) people naturally compare them to well-perfected gas refueling, (b) they're so crucial (being stranded on the road is a huge deal), and (c) there's often no viable backup option in range.

Gas refueling is a very high standard everyone is used to, and DCFC charging isn't anywhere remotely close yet in terms of consistency, dependability, speed, and coverage. It's naturally gonna have outsized reaction when one doesn't work perfectly.

 

[SpacePony]

Yes, well that's what I'm getting at if you read my previous posts. If the status info is not accurate or timely, it's almost useless. Hence the reason I brought up the idea of Ford taking the initiative to help improve this. It's nice that the built-in Nav has that ability, but it's a garbage in, garbage out situation.

100% agree.

 

[TruWrecks]

The issue is definitely the infrastructure. However, Ford's own navigation system routes to poorly-managed sites. On the second leg of their journey the drivers in the Mach E used their own apps to navigate and got much better results, only using EA stations.

You are comparing a private garden to an open market. It is not Ford's mess to clean up. Ford and their customers pay the price for the bad service of the third party companies.

Ford can try to put penalties on those companies to improve service, but it would probably increase cost to the customers. Ford can remove them from the map all together. Then we end up with only 1 or 2 vendors that don't cover the entire US very well. EA is great most places but no in city charging in the West. ChargePoint has slower but more local chargers.

 

[sotek2345]

In my opinion (for all that is worth), the best business case for fast chargers is to position them as a premium amenity for another business. A mid-range restaurant makes a lot of sense here (diner, Applebee's, TGI Fridays, etc.) Relative quick fold and bathroom facilities while you charge. The restaurant can likely charge slightly above market prices because road trippers in EVs will be drawn to the combination of charger + food.

Rest areas on interstates are also a great location (as mentioned above) as would be local quick points of interest (come charge up and see the world's biggest ball of twine for $5).

 

[AZBill]

EA is great most places but no in city charging in the West. ChargePoint has slower but more local chargers.

I guess it depends on where you live in the west.

 

[dbsb3233]

I guess it depends on where you live in the west.

It's crazy how many they're building around here (Denver area). I hate it. I wish they'd used that money to put most of them on road trip routes instead, like from here to Rapid City, Yellowstone, southern New Mexico, etc.

 

[BMT1071]

It's crazy how many they're building around here (Denver area). I hate it. I wish they'd used that money to put most of them on road trip routes instead, like from here to Rapid City, Yellowstone, southern New Mexico, etc.

Seems like a good thing for people who want to get into an EV but don't have access to home or work charging.

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