Tesla to open ~20% of U.S. Superchargers to all EVs by end of 2024

[nvabill]

asdfasdfasd
it's not that they are charging, it is however that they are rentals (uber drivers) and charge to 100% every.single.time.. Tesla will slow way down past 80% The uber drivers do not care that there are many other people waiting to charge.

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[dmastro]

I think the concern is that they might intentionally tie up the combo chargers first even when there's plenty of Tesla-only chargers available. Sort of like how a CCS driver could intentionally tie up the CHAdeMO charger now at an EA station to block out any Leaf's, even though the CCS-only chargers might be open.

That is, assuming there's both combo (Tesla + CCS) and original (Tesla-only) chargers at the station. I think that's what many are expecting, that a current station of 8 will become a station of 12 (8 old + 4 combo), for instance.

The good news is that if 4 really are required to get the funding, it's less likely to have 4 jerks there at the same time trying to block out CCS drivers.

Honestly, I think you’re giving owners too much credit. I’d be willing to bet 90% will have no idea whether a charger is a combo or not. They’re just going to drive up to the first convenient charger they see.

 

[dbsb3233]

Honestly, I think you’re giving owners too much credit. I’d be willing to bet 90% will have no idea whether a charger is a combo or not. They’re just going to drive up to the first convenient charger they see.

Probably. It's not the 90% that people are concerned with, it's the 10% who are diehards.

I'm actually more concerned with the "convenient" part. In order to solve the short cord problem for CCS cars with charge ports in non-Tesla locations, I think they may end up having to place most of these new combo chargers in friendlier configurations to park from either side. But Tesla drivers could find that more convenient as well, thus grabbing those up first.

 

[dmastro]

Probably. It's not the 90% that people are concerned with, it's the 10% who are diehards.

I'm actually more concerned with the "convenient" part. In order to solve the short cord problem for CCS cars with charge ports in non-Tesla locations, I think they may end up having to place most of these new combo chargers in friendlier configurations to park from either side. But Tesla drivers could find that more convenient as well, thus grabbing those up first.

This I agree with. Most of the Tesla owners who understand and recognize the combo charger will leave those open unless there are no "regular" chargers available. Of course there will be those few "jerk" owners who don't want anyone else to be able to enjoy the use of the Tesla network.

The issue will primarily be those who don't realize. Hopefully there will be some very clear signage that helps with this.

 

[silverelan]

This I agree with. Most of the Tesla owners who understand and recognize the combo charger will leave those open unless there are no "regular" chargers available. Of course there will be those few "jerk" owners who don't want anyone else to be able to enjoy the use of the Tesla network.

The issue will primarily be those who don't realize. Hopefully there will be some very clear signage that helps with this.

Tesla doesn’t want minimal NEVI funding for a measly four-chargers with Magic Docks. They want the funds to build stations of 10-100 chargers. With each charger getting a CCS plug, it won’t be problem if the neighboring stall is “blocked” because either another CCS car can use it or the Tesla vehicle can just move over another stall. nbd

 

[dbsb3233]

Tesla doesn’t want minimal NEVI funding for a measly four-chargers with Magic Docks. They want the funds to build stations of 10-100 chargers. With each charger getting a CCS plug, it won’t be problem if the neighboring stall is “blocked” because either another CCS car can use it or the Tesla vehicle can just move over another stall. nbd

I assume the funding is per charger rather than per station.

 

[Toreus]

This picture is from the Arroyo charging plaza in Pasadena, Ca. The DCFC in the background with the Tesla using a CCS adapter has the wording "Power up Pasadena", which is partially covered by a sign directing users how to stop the charging session before disconnecting from the DCFC. These DCFCs are operated by the City, and have been unbelievably prone to being offline. The City took over when the prior operator simply wasn't fixing broken units. I forget who the prior operator was.

The reason why this (Tesla's using CCS) is happening is because for quite a long time after the site went online, the CCS charging was free. This is also the case at the Marengo garage charger closer to downtown which opened much earlier, where the City put in 20 (!) 50KW non-Tesla chargers that essentially sat unused for months on end. The City realized that there wasn't a need (back then) to put in so many low power DCFCs, so the Arroyo plaza only has 4 150KW DCFCs and 2 50KW Tritium units. If you look through the City website (Municipal Services Committee) you will see that the revenue from the Tesla chargers more than offsets the free DCFC on the other City operated units.

Not sure if the free CCS charging is still a thing or not. I happened to be at the Marengo garage yesterday and saw maybe 10 of the 20 DCFCs in use, which was unusual. My Kia Soul EV has a Chademo plug, and I tried a couple times to use the Arroyo DCFC seen in the picture but gave up due to: 1) unreliable units, 2) no real use case as I can charge at home and don't use the 89 mile range EV for long distance travel.

SCPony

Incredibly informative, thank you. I enjoyed a few days I spent in Pasadena; your part of the country is much more forward thinking than mine with regard to charging infrastructure, despite the flaws you mention. It will be at least a few more years before anything like Arroyo is even contemplated - let alone exists - in North Carolina.

 

[Hammered]

Chargers should be load calc'd to end charging if station utilization is above a certain percent. If it's busy, 80 or 90% caps should be instated w/ a 20 minute window / other vehicle plug-in to charger before higher state charging is allowed.

Habitual hogs / unattended charger blockers should face idle fees that make it really unwise to repeatedly block chargers. Users of such stations should be able to photo a tag / vehicle if they unplug and block the charger using it for parking.

 

[dbsb3233]

Chargers should be load calc'd to end charging if station utilization is above a certain percent. If it's busy, 80 or 90% caps should be instated w/ a 20 minute window / other vehicle plug-in to charger before higher state charging is allowed.

Habitual hogs / unattended charger blockers should face idle fees that make it really unwise to repeatedly block chargers. Users of such stations should be able to photo a tag / vehicle if they unplug and block the charger using it for parking.

Some problems with that. First being that the hogs usually aren't even plugged in. It's usually someone parking there that's not charging at all, so there's no active charge session to bill.

I agree on idle fees for DCFC when charging is complete, and many already have those. But only the driver knows whether they need a 100% charge to safely make it to their next stop. I don't think it's right to prevent them from going over 80 or 90%.

However charging more for slow charging (thus tying the charger up for more time) could disincentivize people from staying longer than really needed. I think the best approach for that is what some already do... charge a 2-tier rate: per-kWh + per-minute (sometimes called a parking charge). One CP125 I've used a few times charges 25c/kWh + 10c/min to park. That's a good balance that includes a reasonable incentive to free it back up as soon as you have enough.

 

[Hammered]

Some problems with that. First being that the hogs usually aren't even plugged in. It's usually someone parking there that's not charging at all, so there's no active charge session to bill.

I agree on idle fees for DCFC when charging is complete, and many already have those. But only the driver knows whether they need a 100% charge to safely make it to their next stop. I don't think it's right to prevent them from going over 80 or 90%.

However charging more for slow charging (thus tying the charger up for more time) could disincentivize people from staying longer than really needed. I think the best approach for that is what some already do... charge a 2-tier rate: per-kWh + per-minute (sometimes called a parking charge). One CP125 I've used a few times charges 25c/kWh + 10c/min to park. That's a good balance that includes a reasonable incentive to free it back up as soon as you have enough.

Users of such stations should be able to photo a tag / vehicle if they unplug and block the charger using it for parking.

Via the app w/ metadata the user can still be penalized by the act itself. Reporting is done by 3rd parties

Tesla can do it w/ their own chargers since they're continually taking all of the customer's data. They can simply see by both GPS and cams that the car is blocking a charger. Self snitch'n

 

[ArthurDOB]

I have a really novel idea, why don't they just build more chargers nationwide instead of worrying about sucking the tits of Tesla? ? Yeah, that's the ticket, put in enough chargers so the whole Tesla charger debacle is a non issue, yeah, that might work!

Apparently you missed this: https://www.kiplinger.com/taxes/605201/federal-tax-credit-for-electric-vehicle-chargers

 

[nvabill]

Apparently you missed this: https://www.kiplinger.com/taxes/605201/federal-tax-credit-for-electric-vehicle-chargers

I was actually saying it tongue in cheek that no matter what the reason somebody needs to get off their ass and build more chargers. All this talk and all these articles about what they plan to do is meaningless unless they get moving! But, thanks for the article, I will give it a look.

 

[dbsb3233]

I was actually saying it tongue in cheek that no matter what the reason somebody needs to get off their ass and build more chargers. All this talk and all these articles about what they plan to do is meaningless unless they get moving! But, thanks for the article, I will give it a look.

If there were an actual business case for DCFC, they would. But it's a pretty awful business case right now. Revenue from charging sessions doesn't come close to recovering the costs in most cases. It usually takes a lot of taxpayer subsidy to get even close (or $2B in Dieselgate money). And most of the time, any single charger sits pretty empty. Even when in use, with each charge session taking around half an hour (as opposed to like 3 minutes for a gas refuel), there's just not much sales throughput.

Although it's possible Tesla may have found a way to make it profitable. They're so tight-lipped about their financials that it's hard to tell. But there are some reports that they have their costs down to around $40,000 per SC install now, which is like 1/4th what the typical CCS install costs. Tesla makes their own SC hardware. They also make their own battery packs for the stations where they deploy storage.

Tesla is polarizing with their cars, but damn, it's hard to deny how far ahead they are with building/installing/running DCFC stations. I guess the good news is that charger hardware should be 100x easier to design and build than a car, so hopefully some of the others will catch up fast. We need much better DCFC hardware from the manufacturers.

 

[TGIF]

I chose a Tesla Model Y as my first EV 18 months ago primarily because of the range Tesla sold the car on (which I later learned was overstated) and the Supercharger network always being available where I live in NE PA. I'm not sure there is "pettiness" from Tesla drivers as much as there is feeling like you based a purchase decision on a car based on the exclusivity of the charging network, and now that's being taken away.

When purchasing I liked the looks and drive of the Mach-e much better, but went with the Tesla. 18 months in, I have the car I originally wanted - a MME GT - on order to replace the Model Y. Still, while I appreciate that the Supercharger network will be open to me in my MME, I completely understand why Tesla drivers would feel like Elon pulled the rug out from under them.

In which case their beef is with Musk, not with other EV drivers. We do need to have/promote a kumbaya mindset among EV drivers.

 

[silverelan]

Tesla makes their own SC hardware. They also make their own battery packs for the stations where they deploy storage.

Tesla is polarizing with their cars, but damn, it's hard to deny how far ahead they are with building/installing/running DCFC stations.

Here’s what I don’t understand. Why didn’t (or doesn’t) Ford get into the DCFC manufacturing business? They’ve got billions tied up in R&D on EV tech but they’ve totally ceded the opportunity to build and sell agnostic DCFC hardware.

Nobody can tell me that it’s outside their ability. Not when they pivoted to making ventilators in 2020 or bombers in 1942. Ford knows how to build things in factories and they have so far blown it when it comes to DC fast chargers.

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