Tesla refuses $6.4M funding from California due to requirement of accepting payment via credit card...

[Jimrpa]

We hate Tesla on this forum. We don't want to hear anything good. It's Ford vs Chevy all over again ?

Speak for yourself. I don’t “hate” Tesla. First, I personally find the vehicles to be ugly (subjective opinion). Second, I find the UI on their most popular vehicles to be deliberately driver hostile (one should not have to take one’s attention away from the task of driving to adjust HVAC vents - we won’t even get into primary driver UI issues). Third, I find their paint quality to be atrocious, based on personal observation. Fourth, I’ve read too many troubling reports of manufacturing issues (such as using blocks of wood from … somewhere … as structural supports). Fifth, a local company I trust does delivery prep for the local Tesla showroom and they’ve told me horror stories about the vehicles they’re given to prep (missing wheel nuts, random “components” in the trunk/rear storage areas, sections of the body work not painted, etc).

As for Elon personally, I have no respect for a “business leader” who violates local health and safety guidance and tells his employees they must do so as well, if they want to keep their jobs. I’m referring to his decision to keep his manufacturing facilities open during a period when local health officials ordered that businesses be closed to in-person work. He may be (probably is) smarter than me, but he’s not a virologist or infectious diseases expert. I happen to (barely), know some leading virologists and infectious disease experts, including researchers who were studying the spike protein and involved in the development of the mRNA vaccines (the technology for which was developed at the academic research medical center where I work). Based on what I’ve been told by real experts, that guidance was based on our best understanding at the time and our desire to reduce the load on the health care system. Musk was foolish and reckless. He endangered lives and likely contributed to the increased load on the California health system by his stupid actions.
So no, this has nothing to do with “I’d rather push a Ford than drive a Chevy” bumper sticker nonsense (at least not for me).

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[timbop]

Speak for yourself. I don’t “hate” Tesla. First, I personally find the vehicles to be ugly (subjective opinion). Second, I find the UI on their most popular vehicles to be deliberately driver hostile (one should not have to take one’s attention away from the task of driving to adjust HVAC vents - we won’t even get into primary driver UI issues). Third, I find their paint quality to be atrocious, based on personal observation. Fourth, I’ve read too many troubling reports of manufacturing issues (such as using blocks of wood from … somewhere … as structural supports). Fifth, a local company I trust does delivery prep for the local Tesla showroom and they’ve told me horror stories about the vehicles they’re given to prep (missing wheel nuts, random “components” in the trunk/rear storage areas, sections of the body work not painted, etc).

As for Elon personally, I have no respect for a “business leader” who violates local health and safety guidance and tells his employees they must do so as well, if they want to keep their jobs. I’m referring to his decision to keep his manufacturing facilities open during a period when local health officials ordered that businesses be closed to in-person work. He may be (probably is) smarter than me, but he’s not a virologist or infectious diseases expert. I happen to (barely), know some leading virologists and infectious disease experts, including researchers who were studying the spike protein and involved in the development of the mRNA vaccines (the technology for which was developed at the academic research medical center where I work). Based on what I’ve been told by real experts, that guidance was based on our best understanding at the time and our desire to reduce the load on the health care system. Musk was foolish and reckless. He endangered lives and likely contributed to the increased load on the California health system by his stupid actions.
So no, this has nothing to do with “I’d rather push a Ford than drive a Chevy” bumper sticker nonsense (at least not for me).

Amen

 

[Socalsp3]

Would probably cost them more money to put in credit card readers and pay credit card transaction fees

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Would probably cost them more money to put in credit card readers and pay credit card transaction fees

Would cost more to maintain the reader, but I would guess the transaction fee is the same regardless as using the app.

Pluss using the App forces people into their eco system which is a good thing for them. Good for consumer too if it's seamless.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Dude, wipe your chin - you're drooling all over yourself.

Actually, now that I think of it - the Charlie Sheen callback is quite appropriate

Great thoughtful counterpoint. Adds a lot to the discussion.

 

[dbsb3233]

Would cost more to maintain the reader, but I would guess the transaction fee is the same regardless as using the app.

Pluss using the App forces people into their eco system which is a good thing for them. Good for consumer too if it's seamless.

Yep. Plus I think it's just an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" thing. Tesla has managed to do what no other DCFC network has managed yet -- get their costs WAY down, probably to the point of profitability. By some accounts, Tesla can build and install SCs for as little as 1/4th the cost of other networks. That number could be a stretch, but it does appears they got costs down WAY cheaper. They make their own chargers, their own batteries (where battery storage is included), and have a streamlined install process. And have the volume for economy of scale others don't.

The CA subsidy works out to $15k per charger. That's really not all that much. Just not worth messing up what's working so well for them so well right now.

 

[silverelan]

Sounds like the CEC and NEVI funding requirements are the same when it comes to criteria surrounding the payment methods. Since states are in charge of NEVI awards anyways, I expect that California will keep its counterproductive rules in place…at least for now.

 

[jdsimard2012]

Please no. No more apps. I pulled up to a fast charger at my grocery store the other day. Scanned my credit card. Didn’t work. Directed me to the app. I promptly walked away. I don’t have time to spend downloading more apps, and creating accounts, for every damn merchant I use. Gas pumps solved this years ago. Chargers can too.

If they want to have an incentive program to use the app (like Starbucks) that’s fine. But please don’t require it. I wanted $3.00 worth of electricity. We aren’t getting married. You don’t need to send me push notifications.

I absolutely agree with you! When I used a gas station, do I need to download a App for every station - Ess0, Shell, Petro, etc.?? No! So why are we forced to download apps for every bloody charger! If should be a simple tap and go just like a fuel pump.

This may be ok for those of you in only one area, but when you travel to many provinces and states (over two countries), it becomes very tedious. I think I have at least a dozen apps on my phone.

I try to stick to the Ford Network, but that covers me only 50% of the time.

 

[dbsb3233]

Sounds like the CEC and NEVI funding requirements are the same when it comes to criteria surrounding the payment methods. Since states are in charge of NEVI awards anyways, I expect that California will keep its counterproductive rules in place…at least for now.

Yep. If Tesla is installing boatlods of DCFC anyway, why waste precious taxpayer funds subsidizing them?

The one negative for us CCS users is it also removes the subsidy incentive for installing Magic Docks. Maybe they'll install a bunch anyway if they've reached SC profitability, but without that extra incentive, they may not go as fast or as far.

 

[RickMachE]

Tesla committed to the White House the 20% number. And the ability to use destination chargers. I never read anything that said "only if we get the money", so perhaps they don't care and will do what they said their way. Who knows.

 

[eleven24]

Gas pumps have cc readers and don’t require you to join an app or closed network

When was the last time you had to call the 800 number on the gas pump to talk to a customer service rep in hopes they could get it to work because you had no other options to get gas?

You can't compare the two. One has an infrastructure that is 100+ years old, the other is in it's infancy

 

[HuntingPudel]

Elon knows what’s best for Elon.

I think his therapist(s) know more about that subject. ??

 

[Jimrpa]

Yep. Plus I think it's just an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" thing. Tesla has managed to do what no other DCFC network has managed yet -- get their costs WAY down, probably to the point of profitability. By some accounts, Tesla can build and install SCs for as little as 1/4th the cost of other networks. That number could be a stretch, but it does appears they got costs down WAY cheaper. They make their own chargers, their own batteries (where battery storage is included), and have a streamlined install process. And have the volume for economy of scale others don't.

The CA subsidy works out to $15k per charger. That's really not all that much. Just not worth messing up what's working so well for them so well right now.

Let me see if I understand your argument? You’re saying that, because Tesla has developed a very low cost model, nobody else should bother even trying to come up with a competitive model? I’m pretty sure that was the economic model for consumer products that the Soviet Union used. It didn’t appear to be tenable for them in the long run.
Perhaps I’m missing something here?

 

[Jimrpa]

When was the last time you had to call the 800 number on the gas pump to talk to a customer service rep in hopes they could get it to work because you had no other options to get gas?

You can't compare the two. One has an infrastructure that is 100+ years old, the other is in it's infancy

The credit card reader technology on gas pumps is over 100 years old? That’s interesting given that the earliest precursors to credit cards were developed in the 1930s and the magnetic swipe for credit cards wasn’t developed until the 1960s by IBM.
My point has consistently been that the builders of EV chargers should have WORKING (not just “decorative”) credit card readers on them - just like gas pumps. I was in Baltimore at a so-called “fast charger” a couple of months ago and between downloading the app, registering, getting the MFA pin and confirming it, it took me about 15 minutes before I could even try to start a charging session. And this was at “Joe’s EV Chargers”, not an actual, real network, so I’m not likely to ever use that stupid charger again.

 

[SWO]

Which is worse, requiring an app to initiate and pay for a charge or pulling up and seeing touch screen on the charger showing a Windows OS error message?

I get it in regards to yet another app, but we're in that awkward transition phase of EV's. It's no different than the transition phase away from cable TV providers versus content creators (Netflix, ABC, NBC, Paramount, Hulu, HBO, etc) going direct-to-consumer with yet another app/subscription service.

Personally, if having a half dozen apps on my phone to charge my car at various locations means better reliability, I'm all for it. At least until someone figures out how to wrap all of this together in a universal plug and charge, I'm afraid this is what we're going to have to deal with.

Apps are always worse. Seems like they are always asking me to re-sign in at the worst times and they add extra failure points (drop your phone? No cell service? Looks like you're SOL).

The providers like them because it's another revenue stream (selling your data) since charging itself isn't profitable. Not seeing any upside.

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