Our meeting with Jim Farley to talk about Ford EVs

[kodiakng]

"What's your Jim Farley elevator pitch" is a good one ?

I think my biggest ask would be why does it take Ford so long to release software? Simple fixes (like a SYNC UI bug) take 3+ months. It seems that Ford is stifled with bureaucracy in this department, so as users we have to suffer with issues for months and months waiting for a fix, whereas Tesla and Rivian can respond much faster and push a fix for an issue in only a week or two. Same with some of the Chinese EV brands, they move very quickly. Ford really needs to improve the response time for simple issues or they won't survive.

Another one I'd love to ask is who's writing the release notes and if Jim realizes it makes Ford look like a joke...

very good points. beyond software fixes, the fact they couldn't roll out BlueCruise 1.2 to the fleet was a huge miss.

i'd ask about their underperforming cloud and app software service. the current fordpass platform is so tied to their legacy products it is hamstringing their new products. he talks about software and services being their future but haven't really shown anything close to new and innovative at all.

Sponsored

 

[Mach-Lee]

very good points. beyond software fixes, the fact they couldn't roll out BlueCruise 1.2 to the fleet was a huge miss.

I won't fault them for that, they put 1.2 on hold to wait for 1.3 to be done, which was finished ahead of schedule. But now that 1.3 is ready, it's time and we're waiting...

I don't want to wait for 1.4 or anything further, I'm really sick of 1.0 and could use the update yesterday.

 

[kodiakng]

I won't fault them for that, they put 1.2 on hold to wait for 1.3 to be done, which was finished ahead of schedule. But now that 1.3 is ready, it's time and we're waiting...

I don't want to wait for 1.4 or anything further, I'm really sick of 1.0 and could use the update yesterday.

1.2 was a significant improvement on 1.0 though so waiting for a year seems a wasted opportunity since 1.3 is such a small improvement on 1.2.

how long do you think it will take to roll out 1.3 to the entire fleet? mix in the backlog of other software fixes and they really have their work cutout for them.

reprogramming radio/sirius presets is old hat... ?

 

[Billyk24]

i'm not sure how ford can meaningfully increase the mi/kWh efficiency of an explorer or lightning sized vehicle but will be interested to see what they come up with (or don't). the major factors in EV (well, any vehicle) efficiency are aerodynamics, drive train, weight.

aerodynamic efficiency is hard: ionic 6, one of the slipperiest EV on the market, is still in the ~4 mi/kWh range with a reasonable sized battery pack but still MUCH smaller than any ford EV and has a quite different frontal shape as well.

huge gains in motor/drive train efficiency are hard: lucid, probably the most efficient motor on the market along with a slippery shape, is still in the ~4 mi/kWh range with a larger battery but still much smaller than explorer or lightning.

for the same class of vehicle, EV weight differences are largely a function of cell kWh/kg density and overall pack size.

getting the kind of range at highway speeds jim is describing will require significant advances in cell density, motor efficiency, and some compromises in shape for aerodynamics. there may be small percentage gains in other areas but these are the primary contributors.

fast charging also means he's talking about 800+V architecture which is good.

Solid State battery might be what he is referring to. Higher energy density for the same size and faster charging "speed".

 

[Mach-Lee]

1.2 was a significant improvement on 1.0 though so waiting for a year seems a wasted opportunity since 1.3 is such a small improvement on 1.2.

how long do you think it will take to roll out 1.3 to the entire fleet? mix in the backlog of other software fixes and they really have their work cutout for them.

reprogramming radio/sirius presets is old hat... ?

I think 1.3 is still noteworthy for the improvements in lane centering precision and staying engaged through turns, which was one of the top complaints with 1.0.

I mean, they could really start the updates any day. I think they could deploy to most of the fleet in two months. But there are also a large subset of cars with stuck or missed OTAs that need attention. Unfortunately once OTAs are missed, they don't always show up again so those cars get behind.

There is really no technical limitation preventing them from deploying faster. Some people have gotten 3 OTAs in a day. No reason why BlueCruise 1.3 couldn't be done rapid fire like that, other than being considered a bad practice or taxing servers.

We still have 2021s that haven't gotten BlueCruise 1.0 yet. I think part of the solution needs to involve a dealer program for fixing cars with stuck updates so they can get caught up since that is proving to be impossible with enough missed OTAs.

 

[kodiakng]

I think 1.3 is still noteworthy for the improvements in lane centering precision and staying engaged through turns, which was one of the top complaints with 1.0.

1.2 did most of that work - the new lane centering works really well in the two road trips i've been able to use it and i was quite impressed with its corner holding ability. not $800/yr impressed but "technically as a nerd" impressed. ?

I mean, they could really start the updates any day. I think they could deploy to most of the fleet in two months. But there are also a large subset of cars with stuck or missed OTAs that need attention. Unfortunately once OTAs are missed, they don't always show up again so those cars get behind.

it will be interesting to watch.

There is really no technical limitation preventing them from deploying faster. Some people have gotten 3 OTAs in a day. No reason why BlueCruise 1.3 couldn't be done rapid fire like that, other than being considered a bad practice or taxing servers.

do you think they have the LVB maintenance handled for an update that hits multiple modules?

We still have 2021s that haven't gotten BlueCruise 1.0 yet. I think part of the solution needs to involve a dealer program for fixing cars with stuck updates so they can get caught up since that is proving to be impossible with enough missed OTAs.

truth. that might be taxing the dealer network quite a bit but they could really put the mobile service technicians to good use.

 

[kodiakng]

Solid State battery might be what he is referring to. Higher energy density for the same size and faster charging "speed".

unfortunately, solid state battery production at the scale ford (or anyone else) would need is still quite elusive. if they were near actual production plans in order to include them in near term models (2-3 years) we'd have heard about it.

 

[Jimrpa]

I completely agree. The one thing that gets under my skin with forum members and YouTubers alike is the idea that if they don't need it no one else does.

My weekly commute for work is a prime example of where range does matter. It's 3 hours 187ish miles each way. I never stop during this commute nor do I want to stop. In the winter I have to stop because I can't make it the entire way, which is VERY annoying. It adds at least another 1.25 hours to my total commute. When I work 8 hours and drive for 6, another 1.25 is a huge number.

That’s a great point! I’ve known many “supercommuters “ like what you describe. I get that, for some, small range vehicles may suffice, but the

Note that Jim Farley wasn't talking about making it 150 miles of range. He said "300+, 320, 340 at highway speeds." I think his point was that if they get really efficient with design, they can offer 300+ miles of real range and use a smaller battery to get that. And then if you add fast charging, it becomes almost identical to many gas vehicles. Several times he mentioned getting better efficiency by being creative.

thanks for clarifying! I’m not sure if that’s possible within the limits of current technology, but I’d love to see it happen.

I will point out that most driving is done at slow speeds, not “highway” speeds. For example, when I worked, I commuted about 30 miles each way to my office on a BlueCruise enabled highway. I’d say my average speed was about 35 miles per hour. You don’t get much benefit from aerodynamics at those speeds, so any efficiencies are going. To have to come from more efficient motors, lower weight, and general efficiencies in the electrical system.

 

[CAL465]

Ventilated seats needed

 

[woody]

Talk is cheap.
Promises, promises?
The proof is in the pudding.
Some of us are not good at politics or interested in politics. And some of us are not politically correct or even interested in political correctness. Since we are a minority it is easy to ostracize us (After 50+ years, I for one am accustomed to it, but still do not like it). But we do have valid points.

Short list of issues of consequence that were completely ignored:

HVBJB
Oil pump
BC
Never ending OTAs
The havoc OTAs impose on us
Solid state - the technology has been available for many years now, but COGU has bought it up or otherwise prevented it
Toyota - the reason they have been bad mouthing EVs is because they have developed useable solid state. Done w/o COGU intervention. And Toyota has been/is traditionally methodical and slow. But they get it right in the end. (No Toyota bashing, please - we own an MME and a Bolt)

The only way Ford can improve range and efficiency, as claimed, is through solid state.
T3 - yet another SUV called a truck??? (The last true pickup was built over 30 years ago. That is why tradesmen now purchase vans)

Even we know-nothing minorities stubbornly stick w/ our MMEs. We often wonder why.

Have fun driving in your car!

unfortunately, solid state battery production at the scale ford (or anyone else) would need is still quite elusive. if they were near actual production plans in order to include them in near term models (2-3 years) we'd have heard about it.

Toyota

 

[NoMoPetrol]

...Call me cynical but I place all the tesla talk of 1000v superchargers in the same bucket as the tesla roadster 2.0 and that we won't be seeing mass deployment for for a long time. I would of course be please to be proven wrong but until tesla start mass production of there own vehicles with 800v+ architecture they will have little incentive and v4 supercharger will just have a theoretical 1000v but very few will deliver with the only advantage being they have a longer cable so will reach non teslas that can use an adapter.

Not only are you cynical, you are adept at drawing inappropriate analogies. Raodster 2.0 is not a high priority for Tesla; supercharging infrastructure has been at the top of their list of priorities since 2010. We may not see an instant retrofit of existing Supercharger locations, but future installations will undoubtedly be transitioned to the higher voltage units.
Call me cynical, but perhaps those people owning EVs with 800V achitecture would be much happier scrounging the countryside looking for an occasional CCS2 location that has the desired 800 volts available. After all, they bought the car knowing that there was no decent infrastructure for their charging needs

 

[kindofblue]

If Aptera Motors ever starts production that will be a game changer in terms of efficiency and range (up to 1,000 mi.).

 

[ChasingCoral]

Yep, but I wasn't talking EPA rated range and neither was Jim. Freeway speeds. Road trips. 300 is pushing it for most people before they need to hit the bathroom. I'm good for about 210 miles (aka 3 hours) and then I want to stop. I can't do that in the Mach-E and usually only do 150 to 180 but that is good enough for now. I knew what I was getting into.

And no matter what, EVs do take some adjustments and will for the foreseeable future. We can just wait until we have a 1/8 tank left and the look for the next exit to charge.

If you are looking for 500 mile EPA range vehicles, it doesn't sound like Ford will be an option for you.

I think Ford is on the right path here. My First Edition (E4X) gives me almost all the distance I need for road trips in areas that are well-served with DCFCs. The issue comes in charger-poor areas of the country. Much of that should be resolved with the Infrastructure funding (NEVI) and NACS adapters, both of which start kicking in next year. 300-400 miles is the right spot.

For trucks and big SUVs (Explorer and larger), there is a real need for more range. A lot of us tow. Having towed a 25' travel trailer across country and back behind our Lightning, I could definitely use at least 50% more range. Again, NEVI and NACS will help but I was getting around 140 miles on the first leg and about 100 miles for subsequent legs each day. That doesn't cut it. The big Ultiums are starting at 205 kWh and they are talking about bigger batteries coming later. I can see the 205s but bigger is probably a waste for most folks. It will be interesting to see where the market goes on this.

 

[ChasingCoral]

I think my biggest ask would be why does it take Ford so long to release software? Simple fixes (like a SYNC UI bug) take 3+ months. It seems that Ford is stifled with bureaucracy in this department, so as users we have to suffer with issues for months and months waiting for a fix, whereas Tesla and Rivian can respond much faster and push a fix for an issue in only a week or two. Same with some of the Chinese EV brands, they move very quickly. Ford really needs to improve the response time for simple issues or they won't survive.

Another one I'd love to ask is who's writing the release notes and if Jim realizes it makes Ford look like a joke...

Never ending OTAs
The havoc OTAs impose on us

One person wants more frequent and faster OTAs, another wants fewer.
It sounds like Ford has hit a good balance.
?

 

[ChasingCoral]

Solid state - the technology has been available for many years now, but COGU has bought it up or otherwise prevented it

Those don't do it. What's a COGU?

Sponsored