Ford hits the brakes on $12 billion in EV spending in KY

[ATL]

Very interesting discussion. It seems to me that, regardless of the consumer market, the real and long term success/tipping point for EVs will be their large scale adoption by the thousands of delivery vehicles crisscrossing our neighborhoods that can recharge when idle overnight. We might drive a few km per day but they put on hundreds. Ditto for the commercial vehicles of service industries. Police vehicles have difficulty finding idle time to charge but it's these kinds of intensive users that can prove the EV Holy Grail of emissions and fossil fuels usage reduction.

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[johnmark]

These takes are wild to me.

I've never had any of these issues charging when driving anywhere long enough to have to charge. Maybe others are going longer distances constantly but I might take 1 or 2 long drives a year. Meanwhile I save 15 minutes every 400 miles when I don't have to go to a gas station.

Seems to me that I'm saving way more time in the long run. It's my only car and I'm amazed how many people (assuming they can charge at home) have such an issue with a few extra minutes a couple long trips a year.

I personally don't mind - to me it's a fair trade for all the convenience I benefit from for the rest of the year, as you pointed out. But when I drove to new haven and had to charge on the way back, my wife was highly annoyed at having to wait for 30 minutes. And I've had enough instances of having to search for chargers after the first choice didn't work to know that my family would be annoyed on a road trip.

You see, my family *hates* my car. They think it's a ridiculous amount of money to pay for a fancy car with an iPad. Going on a road trip in it would just give them ammunition. So to avoid that, we just don't use it for our long trips.

 

[Mach1E]

These takes are wild to me.

I've never had any of these issues charging when driving anywhere long enough to have to charge. Maybe others are going longer distances constantly but I might take 1 or 2 long drives a year. Meanwhile I save 15 minutes every 400 miles when I don't have to go to a gas station.

Seems to me that I'm saving way more time in the long run. It's my only car and I'm amazed how many people (assuming they can charge at home) have such an issue with a few extra minutes a couple long trips a year.

Why is it wild to prefer a better road trip car for road trips?

Do you prefer to fly direct when you travel or have a couple layovers?

Everyone uses their cars differently. No doubt, if you can charge at home, a BEV makes a great around town vehicle. But it’s inferior in other circumstances. Any time DC charging gets involved, it’s a square peg round hole situation.

 

[Fremont Kid]

Problem is that we, the people, ran out of that sweet, sweet Covid cash. The same cash that caused the huge spike in inflation. Except when the cash ran out, the prices did not return to pre Covid levels. Now we’re stuck with higher prices but no extra cash to spend.
There is no way that we can sustain a avg 50k new car price. Higher for evs. It’s great for striking ford workers to get big pay raises but it was foolish to assume that that there would be no consequences.

Covid cash is not the primary cause of inflation. Many factors contributed. Way too complex for a single factor. The financial assistance allowed most people to maintain housing and essentials. I know the amount of money I received did not allow me to buy my MME or other luxuries.

I support unions and they have been the support skeleton of the middle and working classes my entire life. During the 2008-9 financial crisis which impact lasted a full decade and which was caused by the private sector, Ford was the only automaker who did not need financial assistance. Ford workers voluntarily took pay and benefit cuts to help the automaker remain solvent, so in a fiscal manner the lower automobile prices since then were subsidized by the Ford UAW workers. The increase in prices now unfortunately may occur more rapidly than over 10-12 years.

Two books to reference regarding these topics:
The Big Short by Michael Lewis
Overhaul: An Insiders Account of the Obama Administration's Emergency Rescue of the Auto Industry. By Steve Rattner

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Covid cash is not the primary cause of inflation. Many factors contributed. Way too complex for a single factor. The financial assistance allowed most people to maintain housing and essentials. I know the amount of money I received did not allow me to buy my MME or other luxuries.

I support unions and they have been the support skeleton of the middle and working classes my entire life. During the 2008-9 financial crisis which impact lasted a full decade and which was caused by the private sector, Ford was the only automaker who did not need financial assistance. Ford workers voluntarily took pay and benefit cuts to help the automaker remain solvent, so in a fiscal manner the lower automobile prices since then were subsidized by the Ford UAW workers. The increase in prices now unfortunately may occur more rapidly than over 10-12 years.

Two books to reference regarding these topics:
The Big Short by Michael Lewis
Overhaul: An Insiders Account of the Obama Administration's Emergency Rescue of the Auto Industry. By Steve Rattner

It wasn't just the money that went into the pocket of people, it was the overall amount of money that was printed that was unleashed on the economy one way or another.

The federal debt grew by 6 Trillion dollars during covid. I think that would have something to do with inflation.

https://usafacts.org/state-of-the-union-2021/budget/

notice the big vertical jump on the graph for covid.

I'm all for the individual worker getting the most the can from their employer. I would too. But don't be surprise if one day your employer closed up shop and move manufacturing elsewhere. It's not like we haven't seen this playout before.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

These takes are wild to me.

I've never had any of these issues charging when driving anywhere long enough to have to charge. Maybe others are going longer distances constantly but I might take 1 or 2 long drives a year. Meanwhile I save 15 minutes every 400 miles when I don't have to go to a gas station.

Seems to me that I'm saving way more time in the long run. It's my only car and I'm amazed how many people (assuming they can charge at home) have such an issue with a few extra minutes a couple long trips a year.

For me, it's about the uncertainty of finding a functioning charger. There are way too many reports of showing up the station and finding that the charger does not work, or charging at a very reduce rate. With ICE, I would just go to a different nearby gas station, but in a lot of places, that's not an option for EVs.

 

[WSoxFan22]

Why is it wild to prefer a better road trip car for road trips?

Do you prefer to fly direct when you travel or have a couple layovers?

Everyone uses their cars differently. No doubt, if you can charge at home, a BEV makes a great around town vehicle. But it’s inferior in other circumstances. Any time DC charging gets involved, it’s a square peg round hole situation.

I wouldn't not travel, and/or complain about my trip if I had a layover. And while I could afford it, I wouldn't pay thousands extra just to avoid a layover.

I haven't experienced the square peg situations with DC charging even though it's not perfect. As I already noted, the overall time saved driving an EV is greater than a road trip stop.

I understand life styles are different (I put maybe 8-10k miles a year on my car and long trips are 200 miles typically so not charging much on trips) but having another car just to use once or twice a year to save a couple hours on a trip seems a bit much.

 

[WSoxFan22]

For me, it's about the uncertainty of finding a functioning charger. There are way too many reports of showing up the station and finding that the charger does not work, or charging at a very reduce rate. With ICE, I would just go to a different nearby gas station, but in a lot of places, that's not an option for EVs.

Yeah, I guess I have been lucky in the Chicagoland area with charging and infrastructure. There's not a ton of EV's but there's a decent amount of stations so if I ever needed one I don't worry. I truthfully just don't put 250+ miles on my car in a day with any frequency though.

 

[dbsb3233]

For me, it's about the uncertainty of finding a functioning charger. There are way too many reports of showing up the station and finding that the charger does not work, or charging at a very reduce rate. With ICE, I would just go to a different nearby gas station, but in a lot of places, that's not an option for EVs.

It's absolutely a higher risk, no doubt about that. I do a lot of extra planning and research to minimize the risk of being stranded that I never have to bother with in our Bronco Sport.

But that kinda stuff is right up my alley, so I don't mind. It's kind of a fun challenge for me, TBH. Almost like a scavenger hunt. But that's not for everyone. We take the MME on road trips 95% of the time because even though the Bronco Sport is pretty good too, the MME is just better in many ways (quieter, more features and tech, cheaper to fuel, etc).

But I totally get why many people don't want to put up with the extra work, mess, and risk of taking it on a long road trip.

 

[Mach1E]

I wouldn't not travel, and/or complain about my trip if I had a layover. And while I could afford it, I wouldn't pay thousands extra just to avoid a layover.

I haven't experienced the square peg situations with DC charging even though it's not perfect. As I already noted, the overall time saved driving an EV is greater than a road trip stop.

I understand life styles are different (I put maybe 8-10k miles a year on my car and long trips are 200 miles typically so not charging much on trips) but having another car just to use once or twice a year to save a couple hours on a trip seems a bit much.

To be clear, it’s not an extra car. My wife has a gas car, I have the electric, all our needs are met.

It’s kinda like having one truck in the family for when you need to pull a trailer.

Why wouldn’t you buy vehicles based on your specific needs?

This discussion kinda reminds me of the old “why doesn’t EVERYONE just drive a Prius” debates.

We all need, like and want different things when it comes to transportation. Not sure why that idea seems so “wild” to you. ?

In two years, I have never DC charged, and if I do things right, I never will. I have a square peg round hole situation next month:

Myself and 3 co-workers are carpooling to a 2 day meeting 4 hours away that starts at noon.

Zero chance I could convince them to take my Mach E. I don’t want to either. Would you?

 

[Fremont Kid]

It wasn't just the money that went into the pocket of people, it was the overall amount of money that was printed that was unleashed on the economy one way or another.

The federal debt grew by 6 Trillion dollars during covid. I think that would have something to do with inflation.

https://usafacts.org/state-of-the-union-2021/budget/

notice the big vertical jump on the graph for covid.

I'm all for the individual worker getting the most the can from their employer. I would too. But don't be surprise if one day your employer closed up shop and move manufacturing elsewhere. It's not like we haven't seen this playout before.

In the mid-'80s Ford closed their San Jose, CA (actually Milpitas) assembly plant and moved it Mexico. My dad, uncle and brother lost their jobs. This was after the UAW accepted concessions to keep the plant open. Big businesses will do what they can to keep investors satisfied, including screwing workers. Executives did not limit their own pay, stock options and other benefits.

Oh, the economy would have plunged into a depression during Covid if not for the infusion of money. I did not see any private companies voluntarily offer funding to a plan that helped people afford rent, food, medical needs, etc. during this time. Compare inflation in the U.S. to European countries. Much lower. Plus, there is still a lot of Covid money that has not been distributed and I hope that money will be returned to the general fund or used to pay down debt.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

In the mid-'80s Ford closed their San Jose, CA (actually Milpitas) assembly plant and moved it Mexico. My dad, uncle and brother lost their jobs. This was after the UAW accepted concessions to keep the plant open. Big businesses will do what they can to keep investors satisfied, including screwing workers. Executives did not limit their own pay, stock options and other benefits.

Oh, the economy would have plunged into a depression during Covid if not for the infusion of money. I did not see any private companies voluntarily offer funding to a plan that helped people afford rent, food, medical needs, etc. during this time. Compare inflation in the U.S. to European countries. Much lower. Plus, there is still a lot of Covid money that has not been distributed and I hope that money will be returned to the general fund or used to pay down debt.

Executive pay is a red herring. Their salaries are a drop in the bucket in whole scheme of things. This does not imply that I endorse their compensation package, but rather that it really doesn't move the needle when discussing profitability. If the CEOs agree to give back their pay raise, will the worker stop the strike and rescind all their demands? I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that question.

Companies need to respond and compensate investors because the investors provide the capital to make everything happen. Without investor capital, the company will go bankrupt and everyone will be out of a job.

You know it's a fair deal if both sides are unhappy. I'm afraid that in the current post covid climate where companies are rolling over to any and all demands, that the short term win for workers will become a disaster for the company and economy as a whole.

 

[RWG]

Opinion:

The development cycle for cars is several years, at a cost of billions of dollars. The mad dash to build EVs moved faster than the normal economic conditions that usually mold the automotive business cycle. i.e. new technology, ( solid state batteries) interest rates, etc.

It would make no sense to invest billions in battery plants when Toyota is claiming solid state batteries with twice the range, smaller, lighter and faster charging rates. When you consider the current negatives of EV's it is range, weight, and charging speed. So, any auto company that can build an EV that is lighter and goes twice as far as their competitors is going to have the market advantage.

Ironically, the current hottest selling ( and short supply) vehicles are hybrids, plug in or w/o plug in. Toyota was the first company to introduce a hybrid vehicle, 2000 Prius and now every auto manufacture offers hybrids. ( At the time of the Prius introduction, it was "poo poo'd" by the industry, but not anymore. )

Right now, if you wanted to buy a new hybridFord Maverick ,Escape, or Toyota Hybrid, in some cases you cannot even place an order and if you can it is a 1 year delivery wait time. There are cases were a used Hybrid is commanding prices over new MSRP! I recently visited a Ford dealer that was selling used Hybrid Mavericks at $8k over MSRP! Yikes . .

Ford has a problem. They made a commitment to EVs, but chose the wrong battery technology and the amount of investment and time needed to catch up and compete is a problem. They invested billions, put cannot quickly change direction. Other competitors that waited, (like Toyota) are well into the development cycle and it looks like they will have the battery technology advantage. It takes 3 to 5 years to bring a new vehicle to market and Toyota is at least 1 to 2 years ahead of Ford. Add a UAW strike and new contract that will drive prices up, and for Ford, GM & Chrysler it is the perfect storm. I have seen comments lately that EVs are too expensive. Well, have you priced a new or used hybrid car or pickup lately?


My prediction is, the US auto companies will be scrambling for the next 2 to 3 years, as Toyota gets even bigger. The big 3 in the US will struggle to be profitable and they will shorten new product development cycle times, or die.

Short term, the market will buy hybrids from whom ever and whenever it can. New technology plug in hybrids will be hot items. Current plug in Hybrid range is barely 50 miles, but with the new solid batteries it should jump to about 100 and that will drive more enthusiasm.

Future new EVs will have double the range but first mover advantage goes to the Japanese, not the US manufactures. I suspect most of the new EV startups will fail, they have no backup ability to quicly build hybrid vehicles. Within a couple of years, the market could be dominated by plug in Hybrids and solid state battery EVs. Any car manufacture that does not have these options in their product line is going to suffer.

The "game is afoot" we shall see what happens next . . . . . . ?

 

[superdave80]

Would take more than doughnuts to convince everyone to wake up two hours earlier for what would have been 4 hour drive in an ICE. ?

And even if we gave ourselves the extra 2 hours, I dunno if chargers would be available and working (or exist) where we would need them on alligator alley. So it’d be 2 charging stops on the way there and 2 more on the way back and no destination charger at our hotel.

Or I borrow my wife’s SUV and spend 10 minutes filling up once.

I'm trying to figure out what 4-hour trip takes two hour-long charging sessions.

 

[WSoxFan22]

I'm trying to figure out what 4-hour trip takes two hour-long charging sessions.

This whole thread has me believing everyone in America drives 250 miles a day.

I drove my buddies to a bachelor party in Wisconsin earlier this year. We stopped for charge once in madison and grabbed lunch. I didn't have to sell anyone on the idea.

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