Ford Announces EV and Hybrid Program & Plant Updates

[Mach1E]

My point exactly, a rising union tide raises all boats! I know the difference in union and non union factories first hand and would never choose to work in a non union job over an union job.
As for good unions and bad unions, that is nonsense, if a union representative cheats or mistreats a union member he goes to jail "RICO Act 1970", If the company management cheats or mistreats a worker they get a bonus!
Oh and German auto manufacturers prefer to have union factories in the US, here's a link about German unions: https://www.yesmagazine.org/issue/poverty/2014/08/29/why-are-bmw-and-mercedes-so-rich
Here's another older article about the the closed VW plant in Pennsylvania, I think the article missed a few points, like the end of a tax free window and financial corruption by VW Germany that hurt the company world wide. https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE99K0XE/

No question from a workers point of view I would much rather work at a union factory, if only for the fact you get paid about 50% more.

By “bad union,” I don’t mean that they mistreat workers. I mean that they create inefficiency, drive up cost and make us uncompetitive in a global market. They’re bad for the economy.

Unions are great for the workers in the union (until high costs shut your factory down), but bad for everyone else.

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[Billyk24]

Ford Mach-E! Tesla doesn’t lose money.

Are they making profit on vehicles? Or vehicles with the carbon credits they sell?

 

[GreaseMonkey]

Are they making profit on vehicles? Or vehicles with the carbon credits they sell?

Tesla has been and continues to make money on vehicles. Their financials are public, so you can check them out for yourself.

Just to give you a quick comparison for 2023, Tesla’s EBITDA was $16.6B and Ford’s $12B.

 

[DennisD]

No question from a workers point of view I would much rather work at a union factory, if only for the fact you get paid about 50% more.

By “bad union,” I don’t mean that they mistreat workers. I mean that they create inefficiency, drive up cost and make us uncompetitive in a global market. They’re bad for the economy.

Unions are great for the workers in the union (until high costs shut your factory down), but bad for everyone else.

And I am sure you would be an advocate for the job you do to cut your wages in half. I am guessing that would make the Company more efficient? And if you are the owner of said company, please volunteer to give half of your earnings back to the company.

If everyone would just be willing to cut their wages in half, inflation would go down as well.

Gee, that would be a win-win.

I am totally onboard. ?

 

[Mach1E]

And I am sure you would be an advocate for the job you do to cut your wages in half. I am guessing that would make the Company more efficient? And if you are the owner of said company, please volunteer to give half of your earnings back to the company.

If everyone would just be willing to cut their wages in half, inflation would go down as well.

Gee, that would be a win-win.

I am totally onboard. ?

We are ironically saying the same thing…..that union workers are overpaid.

Zero people would want to give up that extra pay though. ?

 

[DennisD]

We are ironically saying the same thing…..that union workers are overpaid.

Zero people would want to give up that extra pay though. ?

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay-in-2022/

The problem with the masses is that they tend to blame "economic pain" on the workers and not the CEO's/Owners taking the "real" pay increase.

Union workers (compared to their bosses) are EXTREMELY underpaid.

Do we agree on that?

 

[Mach1E]

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay-in-2022/

The problem with the masses is that they tend to blame "economic pain" on the workers and not the CEO's/Owners taking the "real" pay increase.

Union workers (compared to their bosses) are EXTREMELY underpaid.

Do we agree on that?

No.

Because that’s not how we compare wages.

You compare wages of workers with the same job.

Elon Musk doesn’t pay his plumber $10 million a year because his plumbers “comparative pay” is low compare to Elon’s.

You pay a plumber what comparable plumbers make.

CEO pay is irrelevant. Even if we think it’s too high.

A union workers compared to non-union? Definitely getting paid above market wages.

 

[DennisD]

No.

Because that’s not how we compare wages.

You compare wages of workers with the same job.

Elon Musk doesn’t pay his plumber $10 million a year because his plumbers “comparative pay” is low compare to Elon’s.

You pay a plumber what comparable plumbers make.

CEO pay is irrelevant. Even if we think it’s too high.

A union workers compared to non-union? Definitely getting paid above market wages.

I am not saying you pay the plumber the same as the CEO.

All I am saying is that you pay at equal rate hikes.

If a CEO is doing well with the Company and gets a 10% raise, the same should be true for the people doing the "leg work". Instead, the CEO gets a 100% or more raise while the workers get a paltry amount in comparison. If you can't see or understand that concept, I am guessing you are "hangin" with the CEO type.

The pay has gotten so out of whack that people seem to be out of touch with reality of what one's worth is actually sustainable.

Can you say two class society? That is what is happening with wages. The rich are getting RICHER and the Middle is getting squeezed. The Unions have somewhat kept above water but I am sure the opinion of yours and others will sway the general public that we really don't need to be bothered with the Middle Class and just let their wages be accepted and live on.

 

[Mach1E]

I am not saying you pay the plumber the same as the CEO.

All I am saying is that you pay at equal rate hikes.

If a CEO is doing well with the Company and gets a 10% raise, the same should be true for the people doing the "leg work". Instead, the CEO gets a 100% or more raise while the workers get a paltry amount in comparison. If you can't see or understand that concept, I am guessing you are "hangin" with the CEO type.

The pay has gotten so out of whack that people seem to be out of touch with reality of what one's worth is actually sustainable.

Can you say two class society? That is what is happening with wages. The rich are getting RICHER and the Middle is getting squeezed. The Unions have somewhat kept above water but I am sure the opinion of yours and others will sway the general public that we really don't need to be bothered with the Middle Class and just let their wages be accepted and live on.

I’ve heard the argument before, it’s just illogical.

You think union factory workers should get paid 50% to 100% more than non-union workers based on CEO pay or some thing about the middle class?

The irony of the “middle class” argument- union workers aren’t middle class. They’re paid too much to be middle class. ?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/income-fall-americas-lower-middle-122100515.html

 

[DennisD]

I’ve heard the argument before, it’s just illogical.

You think union factory workers should get paid 50% to 100% more than non-union workers based on CEO pay or some thing about the middle class?

The irony of the “middle class” argument- union workers aren’t middle class. They’re paid too much to be middle class. ?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/income-fall-americas-lower-middle-122100515.html

This is clearly falling upon deaf ears.

The CEO pay has outpaced ALL workers 10 fold.

It is obvious that you think the Unions should step back and let things happen.

For you and anyone that makes this debate, simply study history and see how well things went before Unions.

Once again, "things" just don't happen. Union jobs have propped up non-Union jobs. Once you take away the "Union", ALL jobs will crater and we fall back into a two class society. We are teetering on that now btw.

From my vantage point, you would be okay with this. And before you suggest you are not, just re-read your previous posts about how Unions are bad for the economy.

I guess you think the rich (CEO) should be richer?

 

[burritoman]

Ford isn’t selling enough EVs to be profitable, right? Economies of scale. If Ford sold the same number of EVs as Tesla couldn’t they be profitable as well?

 

[Mach1E]

This is clearly falling upon deaf ears.

The CEO pay has outpaced ALL workers 10 fold.

It is obvious that you think the Unions should step back and let things happen.

For you and anyone that makes this debate, simply study history and see how well things went before Unions.

Once again, "things" just don't happen. Union jobs have propped up non-Union jobs. Once you take away the "Union", ALL jobs will crater and we fall back into a two class society. We are teetering on that now btw.

From my vantage point, you would be okay with this. And before you suggest you are not, just re-read your previous posts about how Unions are bad for the economy.

I guess you think the rich (CEO) should be richer?

No, I wouldn’t be ok with this.

I just know that in 2024, what you say would happen without unions….. won’t happen

I live in a “right to work” State. This by definition is “The right of persons to work shall not be denied or abridged by membership or nonmembership in any labor union or organization.”

It is also an “at will” State. “which means that you or your employer can terminate your employment relationship for a good reason, bad reason, or no reason.”

And guess what? Nothing that you are making up about what a world without unions hasn’t happened. No need to fear monger.

As far as CEO pay goes, it’s a red herring. Irrelevant. Trivia answer- there are 756 billionaires that live in the US. While fun to talk about and an easy target……. They don’t really matter to the everyday worker. Even if we cut their pay in HALF, and gave it to everyone else, it would be minuscule.

 

[DennisD]

No, I wouldn’t be ok with this.

I just know that in 2024, what you say would happen without unions….. won’t happen

I live in a “right to work” State. This by definition is “The right of persons to work shall not be denied or abridged by membership or nonmembership in any labor union or organization.”

It is also an “at will” State. “which means that you or your employer can terminate your employment relationship for a good reason, bad reason, or no reason.”

And guess what? Nothing that you are making up about what a world without unions hasn’t happened. No need to fear monger.

As far as CEO pay goes, it’s a red herring. Irrelevant. Trivia answer- there are 756 billionaires that live in the US. While fun to talk about and an easy target……. They don’t really matter to the everyday worker. Even if we cut their pay in HALF, and gave it to everyone else, it would be minuscule.

You need to get out of your bubble and see things that are actually happening.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...earners-more-wealth-middle-class/71769832007/

The top 1% own more than the ENTIRE Middle Class and you call that minuscule? I guess our definitions vary. ?

The State in which you live in is not separate from the US. The wages are in competition to other States with Union jobs. Go ahead and take away all of them and see what happens.

 

[Mach1E]

You need to get out of your bubble and see things that are actually happening.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...earners-more-wealth-middle-class/71769832007/

The top 1% own more than the ENTIRE Middle Class and you call that minuscule? I guess our definitions vary. ?

The State in which you live in is not separate from the US. The wages are in competition to other States with Union jobs. Go ahead and take away all of them and see what happens.

CEOs and billionaires aren’t the top 1%.

They’re the top 0.0002%

Again, completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Who ever gave you the idea that pay increases of CEOs should be in line with pay increases of factory workers?

If you were on the board of a Fortune 500 company looking to hire a new CEO, would you pitch the idea that you should offer HALF of what CEOs usually make, then take that money and give the workers a one time 2% pay raise?

You risk 10s of thousands of lay offs hiring a half price CEO if they do a bad job and for a one time miniscule pay raise?

Again, what CEOs make and taking that money and giving it to the workers literally doesn’t move the meter. It’s pointless to discuss it.

Florida factory worker wages do NOT compare to union wages in Michigan. They are not in competition. Union workers are paid way more and that doesn’t make Florida workers make more money. All unions do is make more make more money……..for union workers. They don’t help us here and they aren’t needed here to prevent the doomsday scenario you are making up.

 

[DennisD]

CEOs and billionaires aren’t the top 1%.

They’re the top 0.0002%

Again, completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Who ever gave you the idea that pay increases of CEOs should be in line with pay increases of factory workers?

If you were on the board of a Fortune 500 company looking to hire a new CEO, would you pitch the idea that you should offer HALF of what CEOs usually make, then take that money and give the workers a one time 2% pay raise?

You risk 10s of thousands of lay offs hiring a half price CEO if they do a bad job and for a one time miniscule pay raise?

Again, what CEOs make and taking that money and giving it to the workers literally doesn’t move the meter. It’s pointless to discuss it.

Florida factory worker wages do NOT compare to union wages in Michigan. They are not in competition. Union workers are paid way more and that doesn’t make Florida workers make more money. All unions do is make more make more money……..for union workers. They don’t help us here and they aren’t needed here to prevent the doomsday scenario you are making up.

In the article that I posted, the wealth has shifted dramatically from the lower 99% to the top 1% in recent years. You seem to be worried that it may shift back to where it was before?

"The top 1% holds $38.7 trillion in wealth. That’s more than the combined wealth of America’s middle class, a group many economists define as the middle 60% of households by income. Those households hold about 26% of all wealth."

The Economy seemed to do quite well when the CEO pay was in check so to speak.

Bottom line is there is so much in the pie. The bigger slice for the Ultra rich leads to a much smaller slice for the "non-rich".

The only difference is that people like you seem to be content with a very small percentage holding most if not all of the cards.

It is not sustainable at this rate. When the lower class suffers, history has shown over and over again that through Revolutions the cards come tumbling down and they usually bring the fat cats with them. Lose-lose

Societies that are kept down also bring crime and other things that come with it that affects us all.

And why stop at letting the Rich get richer. Let us bring Kings back and bring back full circle. ?

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