2nd Mach-E/Blue Cruise involved crash

[Pioneer74]

You gotta love lawyers.

Defense lawyer Zak Goldstein said he had not yet seen the criminal complaint or any reports on the crash, and called the deaths a tragedy. However, he noted that, broadly speaking, Pennsylvania law on DUI-related homicides requires “that the DUI caused the homicide."

“If in fact it's a failure in a self-driving or a driving system, that may not be a homicide by DUI even if the driver is intoxicated,” he said, adding that he has not seen any case law on the issue in Pennsylvania.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/b...mach-e-charged-with-dui-homicide/75058802007/

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[Mach-Lee]

The driver in this incident was charged yesterday.

"Dimple Patel is facing nine charges including homicide by vehicle while driving under the influence, involuntary manslaughter, tampering with evidence, reckless driving, careless driving, and prohibited text-based communications."

She was using BlueCruise at 71 MPH, and hit the parked cars that were stopped partially in the lane. As has been previously discussed, it is not technically feasible for the radar to see stopped vehicles in time to stop when traveling at 70 MPH, so you must pay attention for road hazards while using BC. She was obviously drunk and not paying attention at the time.

I personally believe she's 100% at fault and BlueCruise was operating as designed. Ford has virtually no liability here.

Read more at: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article291872665.html

 

[johnnycombo]

I actually bought the MachE because it has the Blue cruise system and I have learned to prepare for its deficiencies. The real problem that I see is when an OTA update is installed and the system behavior you are used to suddenly changes. With the addition of predictive speed assist, the adaptive speed is now totally useless to me and I might add dangerous! I have found that the predictive speed is detecting road mile markers and wrongly increasing the speed, for instance I travel a local state highway that is posted 40 mph the predictive speed assist reads a mile marker 6.0 and jumps to 60mph , going the other direction a mile down the road it reads a marker 7.0 and jumps to 70mph.

So imagine you’ve put in a long day, you meetup with some friends, have some food and drinks, then it’s time to head home. But unknown to you, the car you’ve come to know and trust was in the parking lot doing it’s OTA thing, you get in hit the start button the screen does it’s little start up display and up pops a new and wonderful update by ford, do you read and explore this update at 3am in a parking lot? No, you swipe it away for later and head home, you get on the expressway set the adaptive cruise control “because it’s so accurate” and you don’t want get pulled over for speeding.

Now you’re all set to cruise home, then suddenly you feel the car lurch forward, you look down at the display to decipher the problem, you see the speed is 20mph over, you quickly tap the brake to cancel as you look back up at the road and BAM. Your life has just changed forever.

 

[Mach1E]

I actually bought the MachE because it has the Blue cruise system and I have learned to prepare for its deficiencies. The real problem that I see is when an OTA update is installed and the system behavior you are used to suddenly changes. With the addition of predictive speed assist, the adaptive speed is now totally useless to me and I might add dangerous! I have found that the predictive speed is detecting road mile markers and wrongly increasing the speed, for instance I travel a local state highway that is posted 40 mph the predictive speed assist reads a mile marker 6.0 and jumps to 60mph , going the other direction a mile down the road it reads a marker 7.0 and jumps to 70mph.

So imagine you’ve put in a long day, you meetup with some friends, have some food and drinks, then it’s time to head home. But unknown to you, the car you’ve come to know and trust was in the parking lot doing it’s OTA thing, you get in hit the start button the screen does it’s little start up display and up pops a new and wonderful update by ford, do you read and explore this update at 3am in a parking lot? No, you swipe it away for later and head home, you get on the expressway set the adaptive cruise control “because it’s so accurate” and you don’t want get pulled over for speeding.

Now you’re all set to cruise home, then suddenly you feel the car lurch forward, you look down at the display to decipher the problem, you see the speed is 20mph over, you quickly tap the brake to cancel as you look back up at the road and BAM. Your life has just changed forever.

Everything about that story is understandable except two things-

1. The part where you “have some drinks” then get in the driver’s seat.
2. The part where your life being changed matters. It’s more about the person who you killed.

Imagine that same story except that you Uber home.

 

[ChehRob]

There very much needs to be a chime before car accelerates after reading a road sign. Perhaps a two second delay after that chime so driver has time to confirm the change. I could see a two tone chime, rising notes before speeding up, declining notes for slowing down (and no need for the dlay)

 

[johnnycombo]

Everything about that story is understandable except two things-

1. The part where you “have some drinks” then get in the driver’s seat.
2. The part where your life being changed matters. It’s more about the person who you killed.

Imagine that same story except that you Uber home.

I said you, not me. I don’t go out in public and get stoned drunk and call an Uber. The story is fictional and should provoke empathy in people that have emotion, if it doesn’t reach you I totally understand why! My main point is unproven OTAs should not be installed in our cars, I have never agreed to or volunteered for beta testing.

 

[Tampamike]

There very much needs to be a chime before car accelerates after reading a road sign. Perhaps a two second delay after that chime so driver has time to confirm the change. I could see a two tone chime, rising notes before speeding up, declining notes for slowing down (and no need for the dlay)

If I’m on BC and the car suddenly accelerates when I know it shouldn’t, I definitely notice it right away and tap the brake and put hands on the wheel within a second. Likewise, if it slows down unexpectedly, Ikm pretty quick to mitigate that with the accelerator. Oh, and I‘m usually looking ahead as the eye nanny requires. The chimes couldn’t hurt but but the car isn’t subtle about changing speed.

 

[ChehRob]

Tam... - I to pay close attention, but those chimes are needed., along with the brief delay. Chimes too when resuming cruise control. Read about the parking lot accelerations after accidentally resuming cruise control.

 

[bbulkow]

The question is would a driver paying 100% attention really been able to stop in time?

Most of you are making assumptions with little information.
Open questions: Drivers speed, visibility etc.

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), low beam headlights illuminate a distance of about 160 feet.
Source: https://living.geico.com/driving/auto/car-safety-insurance/driving-at-night/#:~:text=5.,for Highway Safety (IIHS).

Virtually all current production vehicles' published road braking performance tests indicate stopping distances from 60 mph that are typically 120 to 140 feet

A car traveling at 55 mph on dry pavement with good brakes can stop after traveling approximately 304 feet before coming to a stop.
A car traveling at 75 mph on dry pavement with good brakes can stop after traveling approximately 433 feet before coming to a stop.
Source: https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/vehicle_stopping_distance_and_time_upenn.pdf


Lets walk this out.
1. Your brain has to recognize that there is a car in front of you. (Hopefully seeing it at the "max" distance of 160 feet) Low beam lights probably in the city. We do not know visibility.
2. You have to realize that there is a stopped car, not just any car. (Most likely you will assume the car is driving if there is no brake light or other light indicating otherwise)
3. Those "valuable" seconds to realize all this could be 80 ft to 160 ft already (55mph is 80ft a second).

I appreciate attempting to math it up, but the number of 160 feet of illumination doesn't pass a real world sniff test.

Cars have reflectors and their own lights, and some roadways have lights, so the illumination distance of the headlights are not the correct number to use, i think.

Coming across an unlit disabled car with no reflectors on a perfectly dark road on a perfectly dark night is a horror case. Cars are required to carry reflectors and deploy them in the case of a breakdown for this reason. The correct answer in that case is to swerve, and the judgement of how much to break and how much to swerve is a tough one.

I use adas and bluecruise a lot. I generally find the breaking to be a little late for my taste when coming up on a slowdown. Sometimes i give it the lead and see what it will do, my foot hovering over the brake. It gets it right so far. I think my crv's system is worse, though. That system goes into full panic mode in slowdowns when it was setting the speed. Again, being a competent driver, i have already noticed and my foot is hovering over the brake.

I use these systems because sometimes they catch a slowdown i don't. Belt and suspenders. I am always the first line of defense.

I have found on long distance drives hands free is so much less physical stress that i stay alert longer. I had a fault in bc on a full ( about 6 hour ) drive day and really felt the difference. I eventually pulled off for a stretch and cup of iced tea, and the restart cleared the fault, but i am certain i was less safe than if i had bc running the whole time.

This is a generalization though, occasionally i find my mind wandering in a way that it probably wouldn't if my hands were on the wheel.

Safety is still in the hands of the driver...

 

[bbulkow]

I actually bought the MachE because it has the Blue cruise system and I have learned to prepare for its deficiencies. The real problem that I see is when an OTA update is installed and the system behavior you are used to suddenly changes. With the addition of predictive speed assist, the adaptive speed is now totally useless to me and I might add dangerous! I have found that the predictive speed is detecting road mile markers and wrongly increasing the speed, for instance I travel a local state highway that is posted 40 mph the predictive speed assist reads a mile marker 6.0 and jumps to 60mph , going the other direction a mile down the road it reads a marker 7.0 and jumps to 70mph.

So imagine you’ve put in a long day, you meetup with some friends, have some food and drinks, then it’s time to head home. But unknown to you, the car you’ve come to know and trust was in the parking lot doing it’s OTA thing, you get in hit the start button the screen does it’s little start up display and up pops a new and wonderful update by ford, do you read and explore this update at 3am in a parking lot? No, you swipe it away for later and head home, you get on the expressway set the adaptive cruise control “because it’s so accurate” and you don’t want get pulled over for speeding.

Now you’re all set to cruise home, then suddenly you feel the car lurch forward, you look down at the display to decipher the problem, you see the speed is 20mph over, you quickly tap the brake to cancel as you look back up at the road and BAM. Your life has just changed forever.

My experience with predictive speed assist and the feature that reads road signs is it is entirely unsafe and the decision to have this feature turned on when the car is first delivered is inappropriate.

At least in my area, the number of incorrect reading of signs, and the number of signs out of sync with normal driving practice, makes the feature a menace. My drive home from the dealer, and first few days driving before i found the switch to disable, were hair raising, and i thought the car had a fatal flaw.

I have wondered if there is some government mandate to get this feature turned on, but have no data one way or the other.

 

[tuminatr]

From the linked article

"In March, NHTSA and the NTSB said they were investigating the use of an advanced driver assistance system in a Ford Mustang Mach-E that was involved in a Feb. 24 fatal crash in San Antonio, Texas in which the Mach-E struck rear of a Honda CR-V that was stationary in a traffic lane on Interstate Highway 10. A San Antonio police report said the Ford had "partial automation" engaged at the time of the crash."

Do you think they are saying Blue Cruse was not enabled just radar cruse?

 

[bbulkow]

"You seem to disagree with ADAS on a philosophical level of 'people should drive their own cars and pay more attention.'" - Yes 100% correct, people should take more responsibility for their driving and pay the maximum attention to their activity of driving. However, no human is infallible. I'm all for ADAS capability that are passive systems (like antilock brakes) and sensors that add helpful data to increase situational awareness (like infrared vision systems). If the car has to watch the driver to make sure the driver is keeping his eyes on the road, that should tell you something about the current state and purpose of the technology. And just because current ADAS has a camera watching the driver's eye position does not mean the vehicle understands what the driver is seeing.

I put my money where my mouth is. I own a 2022 Bronco. I purposefully did not get the Mid, High, or Lux packages, which add a lot of ADAS to the truck (and any of those packages cancels getting the manual transmission on MY 2022 Broncos). What I could not avoid getting was Ford's Collision Avoidance system. I hate that technology. I have it set to the minimum sensitivity level. I live on a rural road that traces a small river. Fishermen park along the side of the road when they come to fish the river. The road is a single-lane rural road with no line markings and is about 24 feet wide, which allows two cars to pass each other, so it is a bit tight to drive on. With the Bronco's collision avoidance system set to maximum or medium sensitivity, it will trigger the warning, which scared the ever-living shit out of me the first time it lit up, because I was paying attention to my driving and immediately thought WTF am I missing. The system is distracting as hell to a person like me who takes driving seriously and pays attention. Also, I have the Bronco's connectivity shut off and I don't use Apply Car Play/Android Auto (with Sync 4, both systems get screwed up when the phone loses cell connectivity). I even hate auto-dimming rearview mirrors - LOL.

I come from a driving perspective different than most people; I am a lifelong motorcyclist. Obviously since motorcycles do not offer any type of passive injury protection* the responsibility for the rider's safety lies 100% solely on the rider. You can't rely on other drivers at any time, you can never expect other drivers to avoid hitting you. You have to see every other vehicle as a threat. I use the same exact philosophy when driving a car.

More recent motorcycles do have some ARAS such as antilock brakes, integrated brake systems, and IMU-based (Inertial Measurement Unit) braking and throttle control, again passive systems that advance what a human can do to control the motorcycle's engine and braking systems. All good tech that helps the rider (although I might debate linked braking) and none that detracts from the responsibility to pay attention to the activity at hand, which is riding and staying upright. My bike has none of that though.

*Yes, there are airbag suits, and a few bikes have airbags on the fuel tanks, but the vast majority of motorcycles are a frame, wheels, and an engine.

Just as another perspective, longtime motorcyclist here too (sold my last one after i got the ev religion, monitoring developments in electric motorcycles) and i believe adas systems help my driving. My usual use is urban and suburban freeways, and having a backstop to avoid situations is helpful to me, despite the risk of my own complacency. I think freeways and parking lots are the best case for adas. I also use it to keep speed down in suburban streets with low limits (25s where you get honked for doing 30), my training is to set speed based on traffic and condition, holding a low speed can be a challenge especially in an ev without much engine noise.

I don't believe, for myself, that removing the temptation of reliance is the cure, the cure is not being distracted.

Put differently, once I am distracted and complacent, I am already in trouble. Job 1 is avoiding that, which is entirely in my head. If i am on game, current adas systems are a good tool to reduce fatigue and i appreciate its abilities and limitations.

These systems are useless at best for country roads, in my experience.

I have ridden with people using current (most recent) tesla systems, and was impressed about its handing of bicycles in particular. I don't know if i would use it if i had it, i would probably test it out a bit and see if it is additive or subtractive, and in which situations.

I have also ridden full automation (waymo in sf) and i am honestly impressed. The capabilities of waymo in particular might not match the best driver, but i think they are well above the average driver, and i now use waymo over humans when i have the chance.

 

[Mach1E]

I said you, not me. I don’t go out in public and get stoned drunk and call an Uber. The story is fictional and should provoke empathy in people that have emotion, if it doesn’t reach you I totally understand why! My main point is unproven OTAs should not be installed in our cars, I have never agreed to or volunteered for beta testing.

Sure, but as I stated you’re trying to provoke empathy for the drunk driver and not for the victim who was killed.

I think you’re directing emotion and empathy the wrong direction and trying to make it sound like we should feel sorry for the driver.

I have plenty of emotion and empathy, but absolutely zero for drunk drivers who kill people. Even in your fictional story relating to this very real story.

 

[ChasingCoral]

From the linked article

"In March, NHTSA and the NTSB said they were investigating the use of an advanced driver assistance system in a Ford Mustang Mach-E that was involved in a Feb. 24 fatal crash in San Antonio, Texas in which the Mach-E struck rear of a Honda CR-V that was stationary in a traffic lane on Interstate Highway 10. A San Antonio police report said the Ford had "partial automation" engaged at the time of the crash."

Do you think they are saying Blue Cruse was not enabled just radar cruse?

No. Blue Cruise is identified by Ford as a Level 2 ADAS. SAE defines Level 2 as "Partial Driving Automation"

Radar Cruise alone would be a Level 1 "Driver Assistance"

https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j3016_202104/
https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update

 

[Jimrpa]

Anyone who lives in the Philadelphia area knows that accidents on I-95 are a near-daily occurrence. Nothing to see here, except yet another stupid driver not paying attention ?

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