Mach-e for Road Trips just sucks. Not even close. More expensive than gas

[Old_Norm]

Secondly, most people don't understand how gasoline is made from a barrel of crude. All the other fuels and chemicals along with gasoline are distilled at very narrow fixed ratios depending on the refinery infrastructure used for the cracking process. If you want home heating oil (like the North East USA does) and jet fuel like the commercial aviation industry does, and diesel like the trucking and shipping industries do, you get the same amount of gasoline whether you want it or not.

According to the U.S Energy Information Administration, in the US, 50% of the the crude oil refinery process produces gasoline. Without ICE vehicles that amount would drop drastically. Gasoline is used to produce jet fuel but that is a small percentage of it's use. And refineries can produce diesel fuel without producing gasoline. So why do you think, if ICE vehicles went away, the refineries would produce the same amount of gasoline?

Last updated: June 20, 2024, with data from the Petroleum Supply Monthly, March 2024;

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[Mach1E]

According to the U.S Energy Information Administration, in the US, 50% of the the crude oil refinery process produces gasoline. Without ICE vehicles that amount would drop drastically. Gasoline is used to produce jet fuel but that is a small percentage of it's use. And refineries can produce diesel fuel without producing gasoline. So why do you think, if ICE vehicles went away, the refineries would produce the same amount of gasoline?

Last updated: June 20, 2024, with data from the Petroleum Supply Monthly, March 2024;

I think his point was that gasoline is produced when you refine a barrel of crude either way.
https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/In_a_barrel_of_oil

Could they theoretically change the cracking process and not make as much gasoline? Yes. But it’s likely way less efficient.


Not using the gasoline would be like becoming a vegetarian, not eating meat, but still killing cows for the leather.

 

[Space_Pony]

I think his point was that gasoline is produced when you refine a barrel of crude either way.
https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/In_a_barrel_of_oil

Could they theoretically change the cracking process and not make as much gasoline? Yes. But it’s likely way less efficient.


Not using the gasoline would be like becoming a vegetarian, not eating meat, but still killing cows for the leather.

Kind of makes you wonder. Are we killing cows just for meat now since nobody wants to use leather in cars now. Where is all of the leather going?

 

[Snakebitten]

The internal combustion engine is losing market share to electric alternatives. Undeniable.
But it can seem like it's at a faster rate than it really is, if you are focused on electric. Especially personal transportation.
But I sometimes have to withdraw from the trees to get a better view of the forest.

When I step out far enough, I have to admit that the internal combustion engine is going to be around for a very long time coming.

 

[Old_Norm]

I think his point was that gasoline is produced when you refine a barrel of crude either way.
https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/In_a_barrel_of_oil

Could they theoretically change the cracking process and not make as much gasoline? Yes. But it’s likely way less efficient.


Not using the gasoline would be like becoming a vegetarian, not eating meat, but still killing cows for the leather.

"But it’s likely way less efficient."

When the number of EVs increases sufficiently the demand for gasoline will decrease. Then it will become less profitable to produce gas and limiting production will actually reduce costs.

"No, a refinery does not have to make gasoline in the refining process; while gasoline is a common product of refining crude oil, refineries can adjust their operations to produce different proportions of various petroleum products like diesel, jet fuel, and heating oil depending on market demand, meaning they can choose to produce less gasoline if needed."
Search Labs

Petroleum companies reduce or increase the amount of gasoline they produce to meet demand.

https://www.reuters.com/business/en...-output-keep-gasoline-prices-tame-2023-11-06/

 

[Old_Norm]

Kind of makes you wonder. Are we killing cows just for meat now since nobody wants to use leather in cars now. Where is all of the leather going?

AI says:
Leather from cows is used in a variety of products, including:

Clothing: Leather is used for many types of clothing, including shoes, belts, and straps.

Furniture: Leather is used for upholstery in furniture.

Automotive: Leather is used for car seats and other automotive seating.

Accessories: Leather is used for handbags and luggage.

Saddlery: Leather is used for saddles and horseshoes

In fiscal year 2022-23, leather exports amounted to $123.44 million, down sharply from $397.54 million in FY14, according to data from the Export Promotion Bureau (EPB).Jun 21, 2024

 

[Old_Norm]

Because of the economics involved in operating refineries.

As the demand for gasoline falls it will be more expensive for refineries to store gasoline as a by product. Refineries can now, and do limit their production of gasoline based on market demand. I'm sure the production of gasoline will fall as the market for it shrinks.

 

[Space_Pony]

AI says:
Leather from cows is used in a variety of products, including:

Clothing: Leather is used for many types of clothing, including shoes, belts, and straps.

Furniture: Leather is used for upholstery in furniture.

Automotive: Leather is used for car seats and other automotive seating.

Accessories: Leather is used for handbags and luggage.

Saddlery: Leather is used for saddles and horseshoes

In fiscal year 2022-23, leather exports amounted to $123.44 million, down sharply from $397.54 million in FY14, according to data from the Export Promotion Bureau (EPB).Jun 21, 2024

I was referring to no leather options in the mme and many other new cars.

 

[Old_Norm]

I was referring to no leather options in the mme and many other new cars.

Well, you did say, "Where is all of the leather going?"

 

[GatorGrowl]

I have to laugh when I read this post, especially when it's from an owner of several years. If you had spent any time reading this forum in the past 3 years, you would have had a much better trip.
[…]
Plan your trips better, or complain. Up to you.

I was gonna say. Even the Ford Public Charging app says to stay away from those chargers (it uses PlugShare for its data, apparently.)
Public EV charging *is* expensive, between $4 and $5/gal equivalent if you don’t have a membership. With a Tesla membership you can get to around $.30-.35/kWh (3.00-$3.50 gal) and pretty much never have to wait. This is based on a RWD XR Mach-E where at 75mph I average 3.5 mi/kWh in summer.
As for time, I used to make two fuel stops a week, 10 min each if there wasn’t a line. Over the past 12 months that comes out to 15 hours saved.
My typical road trip involves 10 hours driving a day (650-700 miles) with two meal/charging stops. I stay at hotels with Level 2 chargers, which are usually free (but can be hit or miss). It requires a little more upfront planning but overall time and cost isn’t very different, in my experience.

 

[Mach1E]

"But it’s likely way less efficient."

When the number of EVs increases sufficiently the demand for gasoline will decrease. Then it will become less profitable to produce gas and limiting production will actually reduce costs.

Your response sounds like you’re trying to disagree with me, but what you said above agrees with me.

“It will become less profitable,” is exactly what I’m talking about that it’s less efficient (more expensive), for example, to turn a whole barrel of crude into plastic than to use their current process of making many products from the same barrel.

And like the cow example I gave before, you’re killing the cow whether you eat the meat or not.

For sure, less gasoline demand will result in less oil refining. But this will make costs go UP, not down for oil.

 

[HuntingPudel]

<SNIP>
When I step out far enough, I have to admit that the internal combustion engine is going to be around for a very long time coming.

Just judging from my own little stand of trees: I have a serious jones to build another engine. One that will likely be around a while. So in my little copse one of the ICE trees will stand a long time. ??

Of course, I have little interest in a new ICE car. ?‍?

 

[Old_Norm]

Your response sounds like you’re trying to disagree with me, but what you said above agrees with me.

“It will become less profitable,” is exactly what I’m talking about that it’s less efficient (more expensive), for example, to turn a whole barrel of crude into plastic than to use their current process of making many products from the same barrel.

And like the cow example I gave before, you’re killing the cow whether you eat the meat or not.

For sure, less gasoline demand will result in less oil refining. But this will make costs go UP, not down for oil.

You have just turned the whole supply and demand theory on it's head. When demand for gasoline goes down the amount of oil available for other refined products will go up. Petroleum manufactures already reduce the production of gasoline when prices are low. They still make billions of dollars. They don't seem to be suffering from efficiency problems with those reductions.

And your example of plastic makes no sense. Refineries don't make plastic. If refiners reduce the production of gasoline, more of a barrel of crude oil can be allocated to produce other petroleum-byproducts. This can lead to an increase in the availability of products like diesel fuel, heating oil, jet fuel, petrochemical feedstocks, waxes, lubricating oils and asphalt. This will result in an increase in supply with little or no increase in demand.

 

[Mach1E]

You have just turned the whole supply and demand theory on it's head. When demand for gasoline goes down the amount of oil available for other refined products will go up. Petroleum manufactures already reduce the production of gasoline when prices are low. They still make billions of dollars. They don't seem to be suffering from efficiency problems with those reductions.

And your example of plastic makes no sense. Refineries don't make plastic. If refiners reduce the production of gasoline, more of a barrel of crude oil can be allocated to produce other petroleum-byproducts. This can lead to an increase in the availability of products like diesel fuel, heating oil, jet fuel, petrochemical feedstocks, waxes, lubricating oils and asphalt. This will result in an increase in supply with little or no increase in demand.

No, I’m just pointing out the basic macroeconomics for oil.

Oil drilling, transporting and refining are all fixed costs.

Demand going down doesn’t change these costs. If anything, it can make them go up due to less economies of scale.

When you’re talking about “supply and demand,” that’s more about the ability to price products in the market, it has nothing to do with the supply side costs and efficiencies that matter for oil.

Oil and gasoline prices rarely have followed normal supply/demand rules any ways for lots of reasons-

1. OPEC completely manipulates the market. They control supply and pricing

2. Consumers don’t have much of a choice. When gas is $4/gallon I use about the same amount as when it’s $2/gallon.

3. like I mentioned above, what it costs to get the stuff out of the ground and refine it isn’t really affected by supply/demand

There are more I’m sure, but those are just a few off the top of my head.

 

[JoeBeach]

Just a price point on 19 Sep 2024. Valdosta Ga EA price was $.56 WITH the pass. FPL in St. Augustine at Gates was $.33. I will be avoiding EA as much as possible.

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