Jim Farley’s Software Nightmare Explained……

[Doobster6]

Maybe this is a well known subject on this forum, but it was an eye-opener to me. Sorry if you’ve all heard this one before….
Anyway, check out this video, starting at 17:40. Actually, start a bit earlier at 16:20-ish to see why Tesla has a huge advantage with EVs….

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[67 Stang Convertible]

I would imagine most of us understand Musk and Tesla are light years ahead of everyone in the software side. I went with Ford because the Hardware to me is more important than the Software. As we see with Project Highland the New Model 3's are improving the Hardware.

The OEMs will improve their software over time and Tesla/Rivian/Lucid will do the same with their hardware. Although, I don' have much inside knowledge with Rivian And Lucid......Just really expensive rides!

 

[TheSteelRider]

Maybe this is a well known subject on this forum, but it was an eye-opener to me. Sorry if you’ve all heard this one before….
Anyway, check out this video, starting at 17:40. Actually, start a bit earlier at 16:20-ish to see why Tesla has a huge advantage with EVs….

That is very true on all the advantages Tesla has, and yes it clearly helps Tesla's bottom line. However, I think the video is remiss at discussing any disadvantages. Even if the advantages still outweigh the disadvantages, I feel it's disingenuous to fail to even mention them.

A couple of disadvantages, in my opinion (your opinion may differ)

1. Imagine what the repair bill will be when only Tesla supplies the parts and service. No more going to an independent shop where they can purchase parts directly from Bosch or Denso or Dorman.
2. Think of the added complexity and long-term reliability hit from everything being software controlled. In my car, my air vents can't "fail". But, in a Tesla, they are all stepper-motor driven, so they will fail eventually it is only a matter of time.
3. Parts interoperability. When Bosch makes the part, it has a chance to be included in many vehicles, even cross-brand. When only Tesla makes the part, only Tesla vehicles get the part. Tesla makes a comparably large amount of EVs, but pales in comparison to overall vehicle sales. Imagine, for example, how many non-Tesla vehicles have the same exact window motor, for example. Could be many millions per year?

Just to re-iterate again for the haters, I'm not disagreeing with all the great advantages. Simply pointing out, there is no free lunch. There are costs, some obvious, some hidden, and I bet a keen eye could easily add to my list.

 

[lifebythemile]

I would imagine most of us understand Musk and Tesla are light years ahead of everyone in the software side. I went with Ford because the Hardware to me is more important than the Software. As we see with Project Highland the New Model 3's are improving the Hardware.

That is how my other half ended up with a 2024 Model 3. The Highlands are genuinely good cars. We don't keep our cars long enough to have to deal with out of warranty repairs (yes, we are doomed to a life of car payments, we know it and accept it), so the longevity of a car isn't a huge concern for us.

$ for $ I'd take the Tesla over the Mach E. The base Mach E is $50k in Canada/BC (after rebates), the Tesla (after rebates) is $41k. For $9k less you get better tech, better seats, better performance, better around-town suspension, better range, a car that feels tighter and lighter on it's feet, better sound deadening, and just as much storage space. I'll admit, I LOVE my Mach E, but the only reason I have it is I was able to get it for $7k less than the Tesla brand new off the lot.

 

[Snakebitten]

I always have the same initial response come into my head, when I come across information regarding Tesla, that draws genuine respect for their engineering prowess.........

Yeah, but you still have to build a product that I WANT to spend countless hours in commuting. And you just haven't.

I suppose the problem for meeting that bar with me is the EV use case?
A Miata or a Porsche doesn't have to meet the same many hours requirement. They are grin machines for elective circumstances. The Tesla, or Mach-E, on the other hand, are my beater, so to speak. ?

Again, great admiration for the engineering and the automotive industry disruption Tesla brings. But they are about as sexy as a Samsung Kitchen Appliance. Certainly just as cold and "The Jetsons"-ish, if you know what I mean.

 

[ericNdfw]

That is how my other half ended up with a 2024 Model 3. The Highlands are genuinely good cars. We don't keep our cars long enough to have to deal with out of warranty repairs (yes, we are doomed to a life of car payments, we know it and accept it), so the longevity of a car isn't a huge concern for us.

$ for $ I'd take the Tesla over the Mach E. The base Mach E is $50k in Canada/BC (after rebates), the Tesla (after rebates) is $41k. For $9k less you get better tech, better seats, better performance, better around-town suspension, better range, a car that feels tighter and lighter on it's feet, better sound deadening, and just as much storage space. I'll admit, I LOVE my Mach E, but the only reason I have it is I was able to get it for $7k less than the Tesla brand new off the lot.

The Highlands must be an amazing improvement in fit and finish over the prior model because nearly all of the attributes you list were night-and-day better in the Mach-E beforehand and are the main reason many opt for it over a Tesla.

Personally, the hyper-minimalist interior is a huge turnoff for me.

 

[Clockwork]

The Highlands must be an amazing improvement in fit and finish over the prior model because nearly all of the attributes you list were night-and-day better in the Mach-E beforehand and are the main reason many opt for it over a Tesla.

Personally, the hyper-minimalist interior is a huge turnoff for me.

And you get no gear shift selector, no turn stalks (and the buttons for it on the steering wheel are finnicky), rain sensing wipers that don't work right, no 360 overhead cam, no parking sensors, phantom braking (when using autopilot), no gauge cluster, etc etc.

Hell of a deal. Tesla is clearly revolutionary.

 

[Doobster6]

The whole of this is best captured as ‘….what happens when a software company decides to build a car’. I know that’s not an entirely accurate representation of how Tesla was born and evolved but I think it does reflect the emphasis Tesla placed on its cars up through 2023 anyway, and why they are many years ahead of (most) competition in that area. The reverse, when a conventional car maker has to embrace software, is aptly represented by Ford and its two EVs. The vehicles themselves, their build quality, attention to details, design features accommodating owners’ true needs (as opposed to the CEO imposing his own vision), were their top priorities, with software being ‘outsourced’ as though one were sourcing nuts and bolts.
So Ford understands now what they need to do but “…bringing it [software] all in house…” is a recipe for an even worse disaster if your culture is not steeped in the disciplines of software development, testing, deployment and especially, awareness of backwards compatibility issues.
I am also amused at how the ‘newest’ trend in industry is to copy Tesla now and reconsider vertical integration as a means of having total control over your product and its quality. American industry was taught about vertical integration by Ford itself back in the early 1900’s and it was the de facto business model up until the 1980s. That was when Reagan and Jack Welsh (GE CEO) ushered in the era of outsourcing and right-sizing and launched four decades where the U.S. lost competence, capacity and especially, capability in many key industries and technologies necessary to remain globally competitive and maintain our own national security. That ’disruption’ led to retooling our economy around services and finance instead of ‘making things’, and opened a door that China walked right through to become the industrial juggernaut they are today.
So if in fact Musk and Tesla are bringing back vertical integration, and with it a strong manufacturing base for our economy, it will be yet one more thing we will have Musk to thank for. And once he gets off his high horse and begins giving customers what they want in a car, and not just a software platform that omits what he thinks they should be able to do without, he will rule automotive production on a global level………..unless the Chinese get there first, which they may already have.

 

[Snakebitten]

Sorry, can't resist, but did Reagan just get credit/blame, from the grave, for Ford's OTA shortcomings?

I knew it! ????

That guy

 

[lifebythemile]

And you get no gear shift selector, no turn stalks (and the buttons for it on the steering wheel are finnicky), rain sensing wipers that don't work right, no 360 overhead cam, no parking sensors, phantom braking (when using autopilot), no gauge cluster, etc etc.

Hell of a deal. Tesla is clearly revolutionary.

And with the Mach E you get a hatchback that rides like a truck through town, no ventilated seats, really buggy/almost non-useable software, updates that lock you out of your car, auto-wipers that only wipe on the highest setting, and I could go on.

Point is, no car is perfect. Including the Mach E or Highland Model 3. Just for me, the Highland hits what I want more, but it wasn’t worth the extra $9k to get it. Again, I LOVE the Mach E, but it’s far from “the best”.

The Highlands must be an amazing improvement in fit and finish over the prior model because nearly all of the attributes you list were night-and-day better in the Mach-E beforehand and are the main reason many opt for it over a Tesla.

Personally, the hyper-minimalist interior is a huge turnoff for me.

Yes, the Chinese built Higlands are a significant improvement. The Fremont ones, it’s debatable. Personally I don’t care the car was made in China, my iPhone was made in China and that has a hell of a lot more personal info in it than the Tesla does.

We’re the complete opposite, we love the minimalist interior.

 

[ack154]

1. Think of the added complexity and long-term reliability hit from everything being software controlled. In my car, my air vents can't "fail". But, in a Tesla, they are all stepper-motor driven, so they will fail eventually it is only a matter of time.

I still can't believe this is a real thing. One of the latest trends that I truly think is stupid and unnecessary. I will do my best to never purchase a car with touch-screen controlled vents as long as I can.

 

[Clockwork]

Point is, no car is perfect. Including the Mach E or Highland Model 3.

That was kind of my point as well. Different strokes for different folks. Diversity in product offerings and competition is good.

As someone else said, each has its own advantages and disadvantages. It's up to buyers to weigh those factors and decide what they want.

We've had 4 EV's in this household (2021 Model 3 Performance, 2022 Rivian R1T Adventure (quad motor), 2024 Mach-E Rally, 2024 Equinox 3LT eAWD) and there are things I have liked and disliked about all of them.

What I don't pretend or purport is that the Tesla way is the right way or the only way, while ignoring or hand-waving a whole lot of of other things people should be genuinely concerned about. They have things they need to work on too.

 

[SFC]

I would imagine most of us understand Musk and Tesla are light years ahead of everyone in the software side. I went with Ford because the Hardware to me is more important than the Software. As we see with Project Highland the New Model 3's are improving the Hardware.

The OEMs will improve their software over time and Tesla/Rivian/Lucid will do the same with their hardware. Although, I don' have much inside knowledge with Rivian And Lucid......Just really expensive rides!

As someone who has had a mach-e and a tesla, I just don't get this stance. The Tesla interface reminds me of Linux circa 2005. Everyone claiming it's so advanced seem to not have used it. They can't handle basic functionality like automatic wipers, or proper bright control because they removed so many vital sensors thinking they could do it with vision. Their maps are... OK, but things like speed traps are completely unreliable. Their integration with things like youtube music leave a LOT to be desired, it is decades behind carplay or android auto on that front.

For assisted driving it is absolute trash. Whether FSD or just basic cruise control there are multiple turns on my daily route that it brakes for no reason beyond a curve in the road. They still have not fixed phantom braking due to tree shadows across the road. Updates themselves are almost always an hour+.

The phone app won't let you pre-plan a route to see car charge status (although Ford ruined their app and removed the feature as well). Heck, even their PaaK was absolute trash before they added the recent wideband support. If my phone were in my back pocket, the Tesla straight up would not recognize the key, I'd have to pull my phone out every time.

They have charging absolutely nailed. Their power/torque is great. Just about everything else, I prefer the mach-e.

 

[ChasingCoral]

Maybe this is a well known subject on this forum, but it was an eye-opener to me. Sorry if you’ve all heard this one before….
Anyway, check out this video, starting at 17:40. Actually, start a bit earlier at 16:20-ish to see why Tesla has a huge advantage with EVs….

Yep.
Ford’s struggles with software and updates has been discussed in multiple threads on this Forum.

If you really want to know why Ford is struggling so much with software updates, watch this interview:

In particular, listen to Jim Farley discuss software starting at 24:30.

 

[lifebythemile]

That was kind of my point as well. Different strokes for different folks. Diversity in product offerings and competition is good.

As someone else said, each has its own advantages and disadvantages. It's up to buyers to weigh those factors and decide what they want.

We've had 4 EV's in this household (2021 Model 3 Performance, 2022 Rivian R1T Adventure (quad motor), 2024 Mach-E Rally, 2024 Equinox 3LT eAWD) and there are things I have liked and disliked about all of them.

What I don't pretend or purport is that the Tesla way is the right way or the only way, while ignoring or hand-waving a whole lot of of other things people should be genuinely concerned about. They have things they need to work on too.

100%, and I was not trying to imply that Tesla is the end-all be-all, it was more to highlight the significant changes they've made to the Highland (and likely upcoming Juniper Model Y) and that the trash talk of the 2020-2023 era vehicles might not apply to the Highland. As well, my experience is the Select RWD vs base Model 3 Highland. If I were comparing the likes of the Mach-E Rally vs the Highland, I might have a different perspective, but the Rally is an $80,000 car in Canada. If I'm spending $80k plus on a car, it won't be a Ford...

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