90%+ Battery Capacity After 250K

[ngtwolf]

As more data on high mileage durability comes in for Mach-e and EVs in general, I bet resale values will creep up past ICE vehicles in short order

I don't really think this will happen this way, part of the reason the EV prices look like resale is so bad is because there's lots of other factors than just a distrust in the market. The MSRP on the car isn't what most people pay, most got tax incentives to buy the car. Also, electric cars are overpriced (MSRP) compared to ICE equivilents (whether that's a real cost or manufacturers are using tax incentives to mark up prices at this point is unclear). If you were to check the resale price of a Mustang GT vs a Mach-E GT, you'll not really see the price difference. It's just because the MSRP of the electric was so high that the percentage loss looks worse.

So yeah, EV resale value won't necessarily creep up, but MSRP will go down, making the loss between ICE and EV indistinguishable.

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[Teslaeata]

In theory you can replace individual cells in a battery.

In reality, it seems like they don’t. Cells start failing and you’re looking at a complete battery replacement at $30k+.

At least that’s how it’s worked for the old EVs in the bunch (Tesla, Nissan etc).

Even for the super rare situations where a company will replace cells (saw one in Europe that will for Tesla for about $5k), not sure that I’d want to. At that point (8+ years and out of warranty) the rest of the cells are a ticking time bomb and the car value is quite low.

No.

Have you ever actually removed and broken up an EV “battery” or seen an MMe “battery” removed?

I’d like to see somebody try and change an MMe cell, or one from a Toyota, can’t speak for Nissan & Tesla but I expect they’re exactly the same, sealed and are composite parts of their respective modules.

A battery is a collection of cells. In EVs a series of cells make up a module and a number of modules make up the entire “battery”.

There’s no “seems” about it, they don’t change cells because it’s impractical to do so even if it were possible which is in significant doubt.

Nobody sells new cells individually so to even obtain a replacement for a particular place in a particular module is problematic, probably far too much so.

I’ve not heard about individual cell replacements in Teslas but £5,000 sounds about the price of a module replacement and if it’s economic to do that rather than write off the car for the cost of a full battery, irrespective of whether there is a reality of this only notional scaremongering “ticking time bomb” of other cells in other modules failing becoming manifest, is still preferable for an indefinite extension of the useful life of the vehicle.

I dismantled and tested the numerous modules in Toyota HV batteries, tested and replaced weak modules and then balanced all the modules before reinstallation and re-commissioned the “battery”.

You just can’t replace cells individually, it would destroy the module in which they reside.

……for what it’s worth…….

 

[Teslaeata]

As more data on high mileage durability comes in for Mach-e and EVs in general, I bet resale values will creep up past ICE vehicles in short order

We can only hope but whilst there is unqualified claptrap about EV batteries giving up the ghost willy-nilly it’s unlikely

 

[Teslaeata]

I'm not sure about other EV's but a Tesla complete battery replacement can be anywhere from $15K-$22K.

There is a company in Arizona, Gruber Motor Company, that repairs Tesla model S batteries. Since the battery is made up of thousands of cells and are in parallel and series, if one cell starts declining (becomes resistive) or even fails, it can brick an entire section. They go in and bypass the one (or more) cells to get the battery working again. Cost for this runs around $5K or at least it did a year ago when a friend of mine had his 2016 Model S repaired. He only had 45K miles on the car and loves it. Didn't want to buy a new car or replace the entire battery. They also offer a service that will upgrade your battery to a 90kWh version if yours is less than that for more range.

https://grubermotors.com/services/model-s-main-battery-pack-repair/

Ah, yes, that’s a good point, I also heard that cells in Tesla batteries can effectively be bypassed and with some re-programming the car can just ignore that cell - trade-off is as you say reduction in capacity/range but preferable to the alternative

 

[Mach1E]

No.

Have you ever actually removed and broken up an EV “battery” or seen an MMe “battery” removed?

I’d like to see somebody try and change an MMe cell, or one from a Toyota, can’t speak for Nissan & Tesla but I expect they’re exactly the same, sealed and are composite parts of their respective modules.

A battery is a collection of cells. In EVs a series of cells make up a module and a number of modules make up the entire “battery”.

There’s no “seems” about it, they don’t change cells because it’s impractical to do so even if it were possible which is in significant doubt.

Nobody sells new cells individually so to even obtain a replacement for a particular place in a particular module is problematic, probably far too much so.

I’ve not heard about individual cell replacements in Teslas but £5,000 sounds about the price of a module replacement and if it’s economic to do that rather than write off the car for the cost of a full battery, irrespective of whether there is a reality of this only notional scaremongering “ticking time bomb” of other cells in other modules failing becoming manifest, is still preferable for an indefinite extension of the useful life of the vehicle.

I dismantled and tested the numerous modules in Toyota HV batteries, tested and replaced weak modules and then balanced all the modules before reinstallation and re-commissioned the “battery”.

You just can’t replace cells individually, it would destroy the module in which they reside.

……for what it’s worth…….

Huh?

I said they DON’T replace cells for our car. Only Tesla has that capability now and it’s rare.

Here is a company that does it- https://grubermotors.com/services/model-s-main-battery-pack-repair/

They either isolate the bad cells or replace the module with the bad ones.

For our Mach E…… no one does that I know of. Which is why I said you are looking at a complete battery replacement if your cells start failing out of warranty.

To answer your question, yes, I saw my battery removed when they did my HVBJB recall and seen pictures and videos here.

 

[davegram]

In theory you can replace individual cells in a battery.

In reality, it seems like they don’t. Cells start failing and you’re looking at a complete battery replacement at $30k+.

At least that’s how it’s worked for the old EVs in the bunch (Tesla, Nissan etc).

Even for the super rare situations where a company will replace cells (saw one in Europe that will for Tesla for about $5k), not sure that I’d want to. At that point (8+ years and out of warranty) the rest of the cells are a ticking time bomb and the car value is quite low.

If I'm not mistaken, that's where the advantage of GM's ultium platform comes in. Much easier to replace individual cells. I'm wondering if Ford's big announcement August 11th will include a similarly flexible battery platform.

 

[Mach1E]

If I'm not mistaken, that's where the advantage of GM's ultium platform comes in. Much easier to replace individual cells. I'm wondering if Ford's big announcement August 11th will include a similarly flexible battery platform.

It would be nice, but doesn’t really help new car owners. Just makes it better for people buying 10 year old BEVs.

I honestly don’t think Ford cares about it at the moment. And with how few under warranty battery replacements they have, it’s not necessarily a problem to tackle at the moment.

Honestly, unless this big announcement involves a new car I would want to buy, not sure I’ll care much.

 

[SoriceConsulting]

Hmmm… not sure if I should be concerned but my 2023 GTPE has only 5k miles and car scanner shows HVB health at 96%. Have never L3 charged (always L2, some L1) and battery always stays between about 40-80%. Occasionally charge to 100. Did the battery calibration thing once but no change, still at 96% SOH.

Not sure if another calibration would help or if I should even worry about it.

 

[CraigS]

Is there some central place for gathering stats of mileage/age/SOH for Mach-Es? In NZ we have a site called FlipTheFleet.org that is mostly Nissan Leaf stats but has entries for other cars. With enough stats in there you can see trends and then if your car is following a common pattern of decline (or lack thereof). Last I checked my MY23.75 was at 6,000 miles and 92% SOH. It's like to see if other LFPs are all doing the same or if it is below average, because frankly it does seem pretty bad and if it is going to collapse I want to know if it is heading towards a warranty claim.

 

[firak]

Is there some central place for gathering stats of mileage/age/SOH for Mach-Es? In NZ we have a site called FlipTheFleet.org that is mostly Nissan Leaf stats but has entries for other cars. With enough stats in there you can see trends and then if your car is following a common pattern of decline (or lack thereof). Last I checked my MY23.75 was at 6,000 miles and 92% SOH. It's like to see if other LFPs are all doing the same or if it is below average, because frankly it does seem pretty bad and if it is going to collapse I want to know if it is heading towards a warranty claim.

My 23.5 is at 16000km (10000 miles or so) and showing 92% on Carscanner too.

 

[ChrisO]

My 2024 is at 9203 miles and 94% SOH, at the end of August I will have owned it for one year.

As others have said, it might be more about time then distance.

 

[flapjake314]

It’s age, not mileage folks. Age. Use it or lose it.

My 2024 is at 9203 miles and 94% SOH, at the end of August I will have owned it for one year.

As others have said, it might be more about time then distance.

[...] Life of EV batteries is measured in years, not really miles. [...]

based on the database i've been collecting, seems to be more strongly correlated to miles (more specifically, cycles). but age does seem to play a role...

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...-analytics-crowdsourced-data-add-yours.38065/

here's a guy that specifically ran it in a multi-variable regression

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...crowdsourced-data-add-yours.38065/post-923330

 

[GreaseMonkey]

based on the database i've been collecting, seems to be more strongly correlated to miles (more specifically, cycles). but age does seem to play a role...

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...-analytics-crowdsourced-data-add-yours.38065/

here's a guy that specifically ran it in a multi-variable regression

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...crowdsourced-data-add-yours.38065/post-923330

R^2 of 42% is not good. It’s either that we don’t know what factors to account for, how to measure the factors accurately, and / or the SoH provided is highly unreliable. I suspect that all three are at play to varying degrees. You can’t do a regression without clean data. Or you can, but you’ll get a low R^2 like the other guy did.

Theoretically, the battery can last 2000-3000 cycles, which no one has practically done in a Mach-E yet. Also, no one that we know of claimed a full battery replacement under warranty yet. But we know of several who drove high mileage and their batteries are fine.

 

[flapjake314]

R^2 of 42% is not good.

i agree, though my point is the age fit is even worse. and again very little predictive value in combining the age with the cycles.

so there's no evidence (based on this dataset) for people to say SOH is based primarily on age, if someone has other data showing that we should look. i had heard the same comment previously and was surprised to see the datapoints not showing this.

 

[ChrisO]

Has anybody ever looked at the SOH of a brand new car?
I have a feeling you won’t see 100%.

And the more I think about this number, the more I suspect it isn’t what people think. A battery that isn’t considered good enough for an EV I believe is below 90% of the original charge. And at least for me I sort of jumping at the conclusion that maybe this is the SOH number, but the more I think about it, I don’t think it is.

Does anybody know what it actually is?

I suspect it is nothing more than sort of quality number or such. And is such a perfectly good working battery might have a percentage lower than 90%.

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