BlueCruise/Co-Pilot 360 and the Law

[TruWrecks]

In the USA only Level 2 Autonomous Operation is allowed. Level 2 requires the driver to be alert and ready to drive at all times.

This means, and it is in the legal agreement, if you are using BlueCruise/Co-Pilot 360 or Tesla Autopilot/FSD or any other brand of Driver Assistance protocol you cannot sue the manufacture if it crashes while using it.

This is because you are required to be "alert and ready" to take over driving at all times!

Please remember this with BlueCruise coming out to the rest of us soon. We are still Drivers. It is only an Aid.

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[Kamuelaflyer]

if you are using BlueCruise/Co-Pilot 360 or Tesla Autopilot/FSD or any other brand of Driver Assistance protocol you cannot sue the manufacture if it crashes while using it.

Maybe.

 

[DYohn]

Yes, you can always sue. You just may or may not have a case.

 

[phidauex]

The US at least is still a common law country so you can sue for anything you want, you just have to get the courts to agree with you.

In my industry at least, the main risk I have of being sued due to a product I created is negligence. Ordinary negligence would be a mistake that even a reasonable person educated in the field could make from time to time, gross negligence is a mistake that a reasonable person educated in the field should not have made, and/or, knowing full well that the mistake is present and choosing not to do anything about it. I am not a lawyer, but my lawyers coach us regularly.

I think gross negligence claims are what these auto makers need to watch out for. There is a ton of gross negligence in software - it is pretty much a joke in the software world now "of course there are bugs - the users are our testers". If your free email app deletes your draft because of a known bug that deletes drafts that the company decided to ignore then that might technically be gross negligence, but no one would win a lawsuit because you didn't pay anything for the product and there was no damage.

But if any of that attitude leaks into the control system programming on a car, then it could open up the automaker to negligence suits that would easily bypass any argument that it is only "aid". Gross negligence is a bit of a laser that cuts through waivers and weasel-words.

 

[mpshizzle]

In the USA only Level 2 Autonomous Operation is allowed. Level 2 requires the driver to be alert and ready to drive at all times.

What are the limits of this? Waymo, for example doesn't fall under this category at all

 

[TruWrecks]

What are the limits of this? Waymo, for example doesn't fall under this category at all

Waymo is required to apply to each state for a permit to operate its vehicles.

 

[Mirak]

Please remember this with BlueCruise coming out to the rest of us soon. We are still Drivers. It is only an Aid.

Define “soon.”

 

[Skip Towne]

I think Blue Cruise Hands-free driving is required in New Hampshire.

I've seen the highways signs

 

[noway]

Level 2 => Driver is responsible for making sure the computer does not do anything wrong. That is, computer is driving, driver is monitoring computer. A level 2 system can have absolutely no knowledge about traffic regulations since driver/human is responsible for knowning when system can be used, and is responsible for monitoring and overriding as soon as something goes wrong.

Level 3 => Computer is responsible for making sure it does not do anything wrong. Computer has to notify driver/human if assistance is required. Driver/human is responsible for responding to computer demanding assistance. In this case the computer needs to have a computer to monitor itself (referenced to as redundancy), so it cannot expect driver/human to monitor driving, but it can demand with a few seconds of warning that the driver/human takes control.

This means, that in level 2 human is responsible. In level 3 it is the computer that is responsible if an accident happens if it did not notify driver that something is wrong and driver has time to override.

First level 3 system is being deployed by Mercedes now in Germany, and Mercedes has officially announced that they will take the full responsibility for any accident happening while level 3 system is active. It is geofenced and works only in certain conditions, but as it is a level 3 system, a human driver does not have to watch and monitor while it is working. I assume this is powered by Mobileye technology (probably the Q5 hardware platform).

https://group.mercedes-benz.com/inn...oval-for-conditionally-automated-driving.html

While this system is very limited and basically only works in queue driving conditions it is a huge step forward since it is the first system which has to actually deal with ANY kind of situation that can happen without any human monitoring (but the reaction could still be to ask the driver to take over)

Level 1 => Human is driving
Level 2 => Human is watching
Level 3 => Human is available to take over within seconds on demand
Level 4 => Human can be asked to move over to the driver seat to take over, but car needs to park itself first
Level 5 => No driver is required to be available at all

 

[benk016]

First level 3 system is being deployed by Mercedes now in Germany, and Mercedes has officially announced that they will take the full responsibility for any accident happening while level 3 system is active. It is geofenced and works only in certain conditions, but as it is a level 3 system, a human driver does not have to watch and monitor while it is working. I assume this is powered by Mobileye technology (probably the Q5 hardware platform).

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Like, if it alerts for driver intervention, and the driver doesn't respond quick enough, does it disengage and then in that small time between it turning off and the driver not reacting quickly, if there is a wreck there, would they still be responsible or say it was disengaged at the time of the accident?

Just small gray areas like that will be interesting to see how its handled.

 

[noway]

It is not actually a gray area. Driver is required to be available in the driver seat to take over if necessary with a few seconds of warning, if driver does not respond it would be the drivers fault, but still the car could do an emergecy brake, and I will assume it will. The key difference is that the car actually has to tell the driver, not the other way around, so if the car just suddenly crashes while driver is watching a movie it is the cars fault.

Even level 2 systems does not just stop working if the driver is not responding to hands on wheel, they will do whatever they can to prevent an accident by slowing down to a stop or near-stop (Ford does this, it will slow down to a walking speed, but still keep steering)

 

[benk016]

It is not actually a gray area. Driver is required to be available in the driver seat to take over if necessary with a few seconds of warning, if driver does not respond it would be the drivers fault, but still the car could do an emergecy brake, and I will assume it will. The key difference is that the car actually has to tell the driver, not the other way around, so if the car just suddenly crashes while driver is watching a movie it is the cars fault.

Even level 2 systems does not just stop working if the driver is not responding to hands on wheel, they will do whatever they can to prevent an accident by slowing down to a stop or near-stop (Ford does this, it will slow down to a walking speed, but still keep steering)

Well if its anything like BlueCruise, occasionally, it will get in a scenario where it just cuts off instantly. Normally it tells you to put hands back on the wheel, and its got lane centering still going so you have 20 seconds or so to get back in control before it starts really dinging at you. But sometimes, it drops all driver assist all at once and can feel like the car lets go of steering completely. At least on BC you should already be ready to take over at any moment, but on a more advanced system, if it cut off like that you may not be ready in time.

 

[noway]

That kind of cut-off is not allowed in any way in a level 3 system, it simply cannot do it, even in a complete failure it will have to do whatever it can to keep in control long enough, at least until it can stop safely or driver can take over.

That is why it needs several layers of redundancy to work. In the Mobileye system there is two indipendent system which both can fully drive the car, one of them is vision only, using only cameras, and the other is radar/lidar only with map assist. In the event of the cameras not being able to see anything (temporary being blinded by light, sun, kids with lasers, .. or blocked by something.. or electronic failure) the other system can temporary drive the car for long enough to let the driver take control. Just by using the radars it will be able to navigate between cars, by using maps it will know where the road is, how many lanes there are, where the lanes are, what the signs would say. The system is not relying on GPS, but rather on just using radars/lidars to scan the environment around assisted by maps generated and updated by all connected cars running the system, and knowing the distance to signs, rails, and other elements it can recognize.

Even the camera system is layered. It will look for lane markings, while also at the same time categorising all kind of elements around to know what is the road surface and what is driveable or not. If lane markings are gone it will still be able to drive by just knowing where the road surface is, even if it means going out of lane it will still be able to navigate safely without crashing into things.

but, even if current level 2 systems are just refusing to drive and cuts off when road markings are gone it does not mean it cannot do it. It just limits its capabilities so it does not act as it can do more than it actually can, and then suddenly acting unpredictable. Having it cut off if lane markings are invisibible is predictable, a driver can assume it will, and can look ahead and recognize it cannot handle it before it actually happens, and being predictable is more important than trying to do as much as it can and then suddenly in an instant turning the car into something when it finally canot do more.

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