Comparing DCFC costs to gas prices

[RickMachE]

Unfortunately, you can no longer use a benchmark for EA. In a few states, they still charge by the minute (and have varying rates). In most states, they charge by the kWh and have varying rates.

Here's current pricing on a trip from Michigan to Florida (second number is Pass+):

Huber Heights, OH - $0.48 / $0.36
Georgetown, KY - $0.64 / $0.48
Williamsburg, KY - $0.64 / $0.48
Kodak, TN - $0.44 per min / $0.33 per min (note that a prime speeds of around 1.75kW per minute, per minute works out to much cheaper than per kW)
Asheville, NC - $0.48 / $0.36
Columbia, SC - $0.48 / $0.36
Walterboro, SC - $0.56 / $0.42
Pooler, GA - $0.37 per min / $0.28 per min
Brunswick, GA - $0.36 per min / $0.27 per min
Jacksonville, FL - $0.48 / $0.36

So, on one trip, that's rates per kWh varying from (with Pass+) $0.36 to $0.48 per kWh and $0.27 to $0.33 per min.

On a trip out west, we had the same variations.

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[milepost1]

The problem is that the utilities are allowed to pad the bill with "demand charges" for sudden peaks - which is what DCFC generally does: it's either drawing a trickle or > 120kw. Some DCFC have begun adding batteries to smooth out the demand, but those add costs also.

The charging companies aren't really making money yet; what it comes down to is that the demand charges and long periods of being idle are killing them.

Some long periods of idle could be fixed just by the charger being fixed. 4 DCFC 2 down for 2.5 years, 2 are idle 100% of the time. Being out of service really adds to idle times.

 

[Mach1E]

Dozens of people coming up with comparisons of Mach-Es to Camrys is dumb… no matter how many people say it, it is still dumb. Most people don’t know how to do math as this forum provides evidence of on a daily basis.

You have to compare apples to apples on factors that impact efficiency. Size and acceleration being (by far) the top two.

A premium Mach-E is the same size as an Audi Q5 55 and has slightly better acceleration (4.8 vs 5.0). That is an apples to apples comparison. It is not the only valid comparison, but it is surely valid.

You don’t want to use my efficiency data? Fine. Let’s use the EPA ratings for both vehicles (similar criteria and objective):

Mach-E premium: 3.18 miles / kWh (let’s do the fucking math: 290 miles range / 91 kWh battery).

Audi Q5 55 TFSI: 25 mpg combined (look it up: in google we trust). 120 years of German engineering and that’s all they can muster.

The benchmark cost of DCFC is EA which is $0.36/ kWh plus a $7/ month plan. You want to go find a more expensive one? Go right ahead. But that doesn’t make it valid.

So per mile cost of charging the Mach-E for an average person driving 15k miles per year is $0.113 (for kilowatt hours as a variable cost) plus $0.016 (for the EA monthly plan, over a 15k miles per year). Grand total is: $0.129/ mile. But my girlfriend once charged without subscribing to a plan. Well, you need a smarter girlfriend.

So for the Audi to be cheaper to operate than the Mach-E, the driver needs to buy premium unleaded gas below $3.225/ gallon.

Here’s the weekly historical national average premium gas prices in this great nation based on the EPA data (not a blue state, purple as it gets):

Please point me to any week over the last two years when the average national price of premium unleaded has ever been at or below $3.225.

The answer is never. Not once. And it’s not even close.In fact I see more fours than threes.

Without whipping out a spreadsheet, I’d tell you filling up an Audi is 25% more expensive than fast charging a premium Mach-E.

And in the winter it would be equal.

And here we are, even with your cherry picked “best case for electric” and worst case for a gas car they are still equivalent if you live in the cold.

Not sure why you want to make an efficiency conversation about 0-60 times, but even so…… winter has to be apart of the calculation. If it’s about size and 0-60, why not the RAV4 Prime??

Apples to apples as you say.

And who does your comparison matter to? Only people who are choosing between the Mach E, Q5 and Macan and deciding which to take on a road trip based on fuel costs.

But even though you think this is the only way to compare, NONE of the other comparisons here are any less valid. Why? Because each person has a different situation.

For me? I would compare my wife’s Lincoln Aviator. Because we own the car.

But the reality is, even if the Aviator costs double (it doesn’t) we are still taking the Aviator because the time and convenience savings matter more than the cost.

Around town? Mach E every time (unless we need the 3rd row).

And if your other car is a Camry? Better compare to the Camry.

 

[ADDZ71]

One point that many are missing in the argument for / against DCFC pricing compared to Gas is the tradeoff in vehicle features. I love driving the MME on the highway versus other vehicles that we own due to Bluecruise and other safety features. My wife drove from our home in NC the day after a new HVBJB was installed (lord help me for sending her in that if there is a problem) versus taking our 2018 GMC Sierra Denali HD Diesel. Fueling costs look like they would have been about $0.20 per mile for the truck and about $0.06 per mile for the MME ($22 for DCFC at 2 EA stations - 60 min total @$0.36/min + $2 for the charge at home before leaving 70 kWh @ $0.03/kWh).

The MME was significantly cheaper an option in our case and it was handsfree for long stretches in North Georgia and Alabama.

Did I mention that my wife was driving almost 80 mph and depleting the battery faster than I planned the trip for !

 

[GreaseMonkey]

And in the winter it would be equal.

And here we are, even with your cherry picked “best case for electric” and worst case for a gas car they are still equivalent if you live in the cold.

Not sure why you want to make an efficiency conversation about 0-60 times, but even so…… winter has to be apart of the calculation. If it’s about size and 0-60, why not the RAV4 Prime??

Apples to apples as you say.

And who does your comparison matter to? Only people who are choosing between the Mach E, Q5 and Macan and deciding which to take on a road trip based on fuel costs.

But even though you think this is the only way to compare, NONE of the other comparisons here are any less valid. Why? Because each person has a different situation.

For me? I would compare my wife’s Lincoln Aviator. Because we own the car.

But the reality is, even if the Aviator costs double (it doesn’t) we are still taking the Aviator because the time and convenience savings matter more than the cost.

Around town? Mach E every time (unless we need the 3rd row).

And if your other car is a Camry? Better compare to the Camry.

Review the premise of this entire thread. OP was comparing the Mach-E with an “ice benchmark”, which to him was a Ford Edge. He wasn’t comparing to whatever vehicle he happens to drive. He was targeting an ice vehicle that he thought makes sense as a benchmark (in my mind it doesn’t). If your objective function is to compare to what’s in your garage, knock yourself out. But that is not the premise of this thread (again, you can refer to post one).

 

[Mach1E]

Review the premise of this entire thread. OP was comparing the Mach-E with an “ice benchmark”, which to him was a Ford Edge. He wasn’t comparing to whatever vehicle he happens to drive. He was targeting an ice vehicle that he thought makes sense as a benchmark (in my mind it doesn’t). If your objective function is to compare to what’s in your garage, knock yourself out. But that is not the premise of this thread (again, you can refer to post one).

So which is it?

We have to stick with the premise of the OP and go with the Ford Edge as the only comparison, or do we get to disagree and use our own choice of vehicles as a comparison?

Seems we both (as well as most people here) chose to use something other than the Edge for reasons as stated.

Either way, your premise that DC cost and gas costs aren’t equivalent has been completely disproven by many people comparing their own experience or by the simple fact of reduced efficiency in the winter.

Bottom line? If you want to save money owning a BEV- charge at home.

If you want to save money on fuel for a road trip- get a hybrid.

 

[GlennMacC]

That gets you around $1/gallon equivalent at home, but still not DC on the road.

Either way, even using 3.5 mi/kwh, it’s still about the same price as gasoline to DC charge.

All,

For those interested, here is a screen shot of the spreadsheet I use for this purpose. Thanks to you Mach1E, I've revised and clarified a few things. See the area for seasonal adjustments to the MPG and cost/mile (K3/4/5 to Q 3/4/5). Cells I 11/12/13 show the overall numbers with the (few) DC charges I've paid for. Assumptions or required input in red.

I also reduced my overall charge efficiency to 75% given how poor the cold weather charge up has been.

Glenn

 

[GreaseMonkey]

So which is it?

We have to stick with the premise of the OP and go with the Ford Edge as the only comparison, or do we get to disagree and use our own choice of vehicles as a comparison?

Seems we both (as well as most people here) chose to use something other than the Edge for reasons as stated.

Either way, your premise that DC cost and gas costs aren’t equivalent has been completely disproven by many people comparing their own experience or by the simple fact of reduced efficiency in the winter.

Bottom line? If you want to save money owning a BEV- charge at home.

If you want to save money on fuel for a road trip- get a hybrid.

Pointless, really.

 

[mkhuffman]

I just love driving my car. At some point I would definitely care about the cost of refueling, like if it were twice as much. It is a plus that it usually costs less to refuel my MME compared to my previous car.

But that isn't why I bought it. I bought it for 0-60 in 3.6 seconds! It is a great car, that would be worth premium fuel. Is there premium electricity? (Actually, I guess DCFC is. )

 

[AKgrampy]

I just love driving my car. At some point I would definitely care about the cost of refueling, like if it were twice as much. It is a plus that it usually costs less to refuel my MME compared to my previous car.

But that isn't why I bought it. I bought it for 0-60 in 3.6 seconds! It is a great car, that would be worth premium fuel. Is there premium electricity? (Actually, I guess DCFC is. )

Premium is the 68 cents DCFC!

 

[woody]

So chew on this:
We have no out of pocket expense for our EVs (excluding taxes and insurance, which when last I checked, almost everyone pays).
We electrify our EVs directly from our solar array.
We use no combustion for any of our energy requirements (all electric).
We provide more energy than we use per annum.
In 12 years or less we will have saved the cost of our solar (which includes battery back up) not including the payments (4 mils/kWh - essentially nothing) the utility company is supposed to send us for the electricity we give them. [of course there would be more savings if the utility company were to pay us a fair amount for the electricity we provide them and if we drove more and costs were to increase, eg. petroleum, utilities, etc.]
The solar panels have a predicted 25 year life span. After the 12 years the savings would be ours.

The point is that the cost is relative. All together EVs are less expensive to operate than ICE vehicles.

In nearly seven years of multiple EV ownership no repairs on any kind (including nearly three years with the MME). Don't get me wrong, if we are forced to keep our MME over 8 years, the repairs will make it a total loss.

Just have fun driving in your car.

 

[GreaseMonkey]

I just love driving my car. At some point I would definitely care about the cost of refueling, like if it were twice as much. It is a plus that it usually costs less to refuel my MME compared to my previous car.

But that isn't why I bought it. I bought it for 0-60 in 3.6 seconds! It is a great car, that would be worth premium fuel. Is there premium electricity? (Actually, I guess DCFC is. )

No car worth driving runs on regular gas.

 

[mkhuffman]

I am not sure if anyone includes taxes in the equation, but Virginia puts a huge extra tax on BEVs to make up for the loss of gas taxes.

Government sucks.

 

[Mach1E]

I am not sure if anyone includes taxes in the equation, but Virginia puts a huge extra tax on BEVs to make up for the loss of gas taxes.

Government sucks.

Doesn’t affect me in Florida but that is an excellent point. Definitely can add to the cost of ownership depending on where you live and how you charge.

Obviously Virginia is trying to recap the fuel taxes you aren’t paying. For the sake of this DC vs gas argument though it would be really hard to figure how to add it to the formula though. The problem is you pay that flat amount regardless if you charge at home or DC charge.

But yes, it should be included if anyone is trying to calculate any sort of “lifetime fuel savings.”

 

[kennethjk]

I am not sure if anyone includes taxes in the equation, but Virginia puts a huge extra tax on BEVs to make up for the loss of gas taxes.

Government sucks.

Wait is that comment political?

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