Gasoline Shortage Summer 2021

[Lilmags500]

Newer vehicle emissions put in layman's terms :

If you own a newer Ford vehicle and want to commit suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning , say in your closed garage with the engine running , you would more then likely need to refill your fuel tank 3 times before you even begin to feel sleepy .... The newer Ford emissions are ridiculously low , and all manufacturers are following suit ..... Its amazing how far gas burning vehicles have come in
reducing emissions at the tailpipe , these aren't our Grandpa's dodge darts anymore !

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[dml105]

Newer vehicle emissions put in layman's terms :

If you own a newer Ford vehicle and want to commit suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning , say in your closed garage with the engine running , you would more then likely need to refill your fuel tank 3 times before you even begin to feel sleepy .... The newer Ford emissions are ridiculously low , and all manufacturers are following suit ..... Its amazing how far gas burning vehicles have come in
reducing emissions at the tailpipe , these aren't our Grandpa's dodge darts anymore !

Errr, please don't try this, folks.

 

[ARK]

Newer vehicle emissions put in layman's terms :

If you own a newer Ford vehicle and want to commit suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning , say in your closed garage with the engine running , you would more then likely need to refill your fuel tank 3 times before you even begin to feel sleepy .... The newer Ford emissions are ridiculously low , and all manufacturers are following suit ..... Its amazing how far gas burning vehicles have come in
reducing emissions at the tailpipe , these aren't our Grandpa's dodge darts anymore !

That’s good to hear, one of my pet peeves is being stuck behind an old car or truck that smells absolutely noxious when I’m trying to have a nice drive with the windows open.

But emissions are more than just pollution it is also carbon being added to the atmosphere. The long-term goal is to help slow climate change and to do that fossil fuels pretty much have to go.

There is no immediate payoff, it may seem like a waste kind of like how saving for retirement might seem like throwing money away when that money is first set aside, but it doesn’t make it a less worthy goal.

 

[Lilmags500]

Errr, please don't try this, folks.

Damn , forgot to add a disclaimer . Much obliged .

 

[Lilmags500]

That’s good to hear, one of my pet peeves is being stuck behind an old car or truck that smells absolutely noxious when I’m trying to have a nice drive with the windows open.

But emissions are more than just pollution it is also carbon being added to the atmosphere. The long-term goal is to help slow climate change and to do that fossil fuels pretty much have to go.

There is no immediate payoff, it may seem like a waste kind of like how saving for retirement might seem like throwing money away when that money is first set aside, but it doesn’t make it a less worthy goal.

Agreed , America is leading the way , but for it all to pan out we need China and India , the worlds biggest polluters to get onboard , we cant do it all alone .

 

[Eraser]

I think the biggest problem getting people to convert to EV's is the initial cost of the vehicle as compared to ICE vehicle equivalent. Generally speaking people need to see upfront savings, long term savings is a harder sell to the average consumer. I'm speaking anecdotally here, but considering how many people carry significant credit card debt long term savings clearly isn't a major priority.

I think we need to stop trying to get people go green to "save the world". In my opinion the average person doesn't really care, personally it doesn't even register as a concern in my day to day life. What does ring true to me is saving money. I think focusing on cost savings with green tech should be the primary focus, a secondary or tertiary benefit can be the environment. Are their people that choose pay more for green tech for the sake of being green and not for cost savings, sure. I'm not that guy, and I don't think most people are either.

One area that I think would significantly move the needle is by drastically simplifying the federal, state, and local EV incentives. I can only speak to the California process, but it took a fair amount of research to track down all of the rebates available. Once you do that you have to check all the restrictions for each one. In addition, most of those rebates are not provided at the time of purchase, and based on tax obligations you might not be able to get the full amount. If ALL of these incentives could be used to discount car at the time of purchase it would make a significant impact for the average consumer, and give them real pause considering an EV over an ICE vehicle. Once you can get the purchase price of an EV closer to the ICE equivalent you can have meaningful discussion around cost savings that can be realized in the short term.

I realize seamlessly bridging the federal, state, and local incentives isn't a trivial process, but it can be done. If climate change is such a "existential threat" to all humanity I'd expect us to be able to make it happen. Generally speaking once EV feature set, price, and long term cost savings are obvious to general consumers, EV's will sell themselves. I don't think it is necessary to ban the sale of ICE vehicles. ICE vehicles will fade in time as a result of consumers seeing the value in EV's and compromises for EV's are further mitigated. Last I checked the horse and buggy were never banned to make way for cars, once it made sense for people to switch over they did. The horse and buggy faded away naturally, I think ICE vehicles vs EV's will play out the same.

I'll step off my soapbox now, please don't flame me ? .

 

[theo1000]

The aim is for the EV powered system to cost much less than the Oil powered system. De spite what the planet saving folks say, EV's will live and die on the cost curve. They need to get below ICE or they will disappear. All these incentives and dollars is to get scale to bear down on the problem. It should save the nation and the average Mom/Pop a ton of money. The potential is there.

The bean counters also say this should be possible on a purely material and technical basis. The problem is one of getting mass manufacturing on board. Even at this early stage you can start to see the outlines where EV's are cheaper to buy and operate. There is still a lot more cost to be wrung out of the EV mass manufacturing system.

One little data point, the pure material cost, Lithium, metal, plastics, liquids of a 100 kwh Li-Ion battery is under $200. No I'm not saying that batteries will ever get that cheap but cost physics is one side of EV's. IIRC just the catalytic converter on a modern ICE costs $300-$500 pure raw material costs.

 

[timbop]

I think the biggest problem getting people to convert to EV's is the initial cost of the vehicle as compared to ICE vehicle equivalent. Generally speaking people need to see upfront savings, long term savings is a harder sell to the average consumer. I'm speaking anecdotally here, but considering how many people carry significant credit card debt long term savings clearly isn't a major priority.

I think we need to stop trying to get people go green to "save the world". In my opinion the average person doesn't really care, personally it doesn't even register as a concern in my day to day life. What does ring true to me is saving money. I think focusing on cost savings with green tech should be the primary focus, a secondary or tertiary benefit can be the environment. Are their people that choose pay more for green tech for the sake of being green and not for cost savings, sure. I'm not that guy, and I don't think most people are either.

One area that I think would significantly move the needle is by drastically simplifying the federal, state, and local EV incentives. I can only speak to the California process, but it took a fair amount of research to track down all of the rebates available. Once you do that you have to check all the restrictions for each one. In addition, most of those rebates are not provided at the time of purchase, and based on tax obligations you might not be able to get the full amount. If ALL of these incentives could be used to discount car at the time of purchase it would make a significant impact for the average consumer, and give them real pause considering an EV over an ICE vehicle. Once you can get the purchase price of an EV closer to the ICE equivalent you can have meaningful discussion around cost savings that can be realized in the short term.

I realize seamlessly bridging the federal, state, and local incentives isn't a trivial process, but it can be done. If climate change is such a "existential threat" to all humanity I'd expect us to be able to make it happen. Generally speaking once EV feature set, price, and long term cost savings are obvious to general consumers, EV's will sell themselves. I don't think it is necessary to ban the sale of ICE vehicles. ICE vehicles will fade in time as a result of consumers seeing the value in EV's and compromises for EV's are further mitigated. Last I checked the horse and buggy were never banned to make way for cars, once it made sense for people to switch over they did. The horse and buggy faded away naturally, I think ICE vehicles vs EV's will play out the same.

I'll step off my soapbox now, please don't flame me ? .

Everything you said about "the average joe" is spot on. Unfortunately. While it would be ideal to roll all the incentives into "cash on the hood", there are powerful interests and members of government who intentionally want the incentives to be hard to use and/or discontinued altogether.

The American Petroleum Institute managed to keep lead in gasoline for decades after it was proven harmful, and that wasn't even an existential threat to them. You can be assured that they will do absolutely everything they can to delay their demise.

 

[dbsb3233]

Errr, please don't try this, folks.

Try to commit suicide? Yeah, I think it's safe to assume that goes without saying.

 

[Lilmags500]

OK.

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