Texas Tesla Tragedy

GoGoGadgetMachE

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Serious question: how so (aside from eye sensors)?
Cross-traffic awareness. This one thing alone means that a Tesla will never truly be an autonomous vehicle - it has no idea whatsoever what's going on in a parking lot, and it means that many cars, including my lowly 2013 Fusion, are in specific ways better than a current Tesla, with current hardware, can ever be.

There's a reason Stupid Smart Summon requires you to watch the car and hold a button down, and it's not "illusion of safety" - it's actual safety. The car would regularly crash into traffic in parking lots otherwise.
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macchiaz-o

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Serious question: how so (aside from eye sensors)?
That eye sensor is not a small difference. I wish Ford could enable theirs now, and equip it in more vehicles, and enable it even when BlueCruise isn't available.

Some other benefits of Co-Pilot 360:

Rear cross traffic alerts, surround view parking cameras, rear brake assist, camera lens washer

There are probably other hardware and software differences. This is off the top of my head.

The big one to me though is a safety-first management, marketing, and engineering focus. Ford (and most other major, global auto manufacturers) takes safety prioritized decisions on its ADAS capabilities.

If Tesla did the same, we would have different names for Autopilot and "Full Self Driving," less distracting traffic visualizations in-vehicle, and vastly different marketing of the ADAS on their web site and from their CEO.

Even some basic UI choices would be made differently if Tesla were safety focused. For instance when the driver changes lanes on the highway, Autopilot disengages completely. It should stay on but allow the driver to compete the lane change and then reengage lane centering and speed control.
 

mark360

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It is amazing that a company who strictly made drugs with known side affects and communicated those clearly to the doctors/consumer with Oxy - (Perdue Pharma) - as being highly addictive was penalized heavily by the US and had to declare bankruptcy due to all the litigation over addiction and deaths from Oxy.

On the other hand, a company like Tesla totally misguides the consumer by calling their features full self driving and claims being on FSD is much safer than driving the car with no disclaimers but yet face no penalties. Huh?

Talk about an ethics case that would make a great case study. I find the irony so bad with our Justice system in America. I'm by no means calling for Tesla to face harsh punishment, or any punishment at all really, but the amount of double standards that happen are sad.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander!
 

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Ok @GoGoGadgetMachE and @macchiaz-o, upon reading into this further, I think it fair to say that CoPilot360 / BlueCruise (gah the terminology! I can’t tell if BlueCruise is replacing the CP360 branding or just going to be part of CP360 or maybe be considered totally separate from CP360) is a lot cheaper and arguably safer than Tesla Full Self Driving, BUT I really don’t think it can seriously be disputed that Ford’s autonomous driving offerings for the foreseeable future are also much more limited overall than Tesla FSD.

Putting aside how reliable and safe it is, FSD will basically drive the car for you on the highway, including nav and lane changes, it will even auto-steer on city streets, plus the driverless “summon” party trick.

The cross-traffic detection from Ford is a nice safety feature, and it would likely be useful for future self-driving functionality, and it’s weird if Tesla doesn’t have that, but I don’t consider this feature - or the eye detection - as giving Ford superior autonomous driving functionality. Rather, I would say that Ford may have more building blocks in place for safer autonomous driving in the future. But Tesla still currently provides much more autonomous driving functionality albeit for a much steeper price and with questionable safety. And it will be years if ever before Ford provides some of these things.

Finally, I don’t think Ford’s eye sensor versus Tesla technically requiring a hand to remain on the wheel seriously negates Tesla’s generally much more advanced autonomous driving functionality as described above.

I’m not advocating one way or the other - I’m simply interested in the truth. There is so much marketing smoke coming out of both Ford and Tesla, and so much inaccuracy and exaggeration on YouTube, that it’s tough to really tell what’s what. But I think I’ve got this basically right?
 
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BMT1071

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Ok @GoGoGadgetMachE and @macchiaz-o, upon reading into this further, I think it fair to say that CoPilot360 / BlueCruise (gah the terminology! I can’t tell if BlueCruise is replacing the CP360 branding or just going to be part of CP360 or maybe be considered totally separate from CP360) is a lot cheaper and arguably safer than Tesla Full Self Driving, BUT I really don’t think it can seriously be disputed that Ford’s autonomous driving offerings for the foreseeable future are also much more limited overall than Tesla FSD.

Putting aside how reliable and safe it is, FSD will basically drive the car for you on the highway, including nav and lane changes, it will even auto-steer on city streets, plus the driverless “summon” party trick.

The cross-traffic detection from Ford is a nice safety feature, and it would likely be useful for future self-driving functionality, and it’s weird if Tesla doesn’t have that, but I don’t consider this feature - or the eye detection - as giving Ford superior autonomous driving functionality. Rather, I would say that Ford may have more building blocks in place for safer autonomous driving in the future. But Tesla still currently provides much more autonomous driving functionality albeit for a much steeper price and with questionable safety. And it will be years if ever before Ford provides some of these things.

Finally, I don’t think Ford’s eye sensor versus Tesla technically requiring a hand to remain on the wheel seriously negates Tesla’s generally much more advanced autonomous driving functionality as described above.

I’m not advocating one way or the other - I’m simply interested in the truth. There is so much marketing smoke coming out of both Ford and Tesla, and so much inaccuracy and exaggeration on YouTube, that it’s tough to really tell what’s what. But I think I’ve got this basically right?
I'd bet that the CP360 naming convention will still be used as BC is an addition/advancement that will not be available on all vehicles.
BC uses map data, and FSD does not. I find this to be a huge plus in the BC column.
 

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But Tesla still currently provides much more autonomous driving functionality albeit for a much steeper price and with questionable safety.
Providing something like that with "questionable safety" is the same as not providing it at all. If it's not fully baked it's just a toy for idiots to show off on social media.
 

Mirak

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Providing something like that with "questionable safety" is the same as not providing it at all. If it's not fully baked it's just a toy for idiots to show off on social media.
That’s a major oversimplification. Just like BlueCruise, you still have to pay attention to the road. But as long as you’re paying attention to the road, Tesla FSD appears to provide much more robust automation. And that automation can make for a more comfortable driving experience.

By the way, the software in the MME is far from “fully baked” and if you expect BlueCruise to be any different you’re going to be disappointed.

If I could have Tesla’s level of automation for $600 in my MME, plus the eye sensor, hell yes I’d take that. But of course I’d remain in the driver seat with my eyes on the road! I think most of you would choose the same if you’re really being honest.

I don’t like cheerleading and tribalism. I’m seeing a lot of that for Ford in this thread.
 
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Mirak

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BC uses map data, and FSD does not. I find this to be a huge plus in the BC column.
Well, yes and no, right? What governs? Isn’t map data potentially just as fallible as car sensors? Perhaps even more so? I’m not sure it’s as simple as saying “Ford uses map data, so it’s better.” The question is how the map data is utilized in the overall automation.
 

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That’s a major oversimplification. Just like BlueCruise, you still have to pay attention to the road. But as long as you’re paying attention to the road, Tesla FSD appears to provide much more robust automation. And that automation can make for a more comfortable driving experience.

By the way, the software in the MME is far from “fully baked” and if you expect BlueCruise to be any different you’re going to be disappointed.

If I could have Tesla’s level of automation for $600 in my MME, plus the eye sensor, hell yes I’d take that. But of course I’d remain in the driver seat with my eyes on the road! I think most of you would choose the same if you’re really being honest.

I don’t like cheerleading and tribalism. I’m seeing a lot of that for Ford in this thread.
Please show me where I said I expected BC to be fully baked. Only 1 set of cheerleaders is claiming that.
 

Mirak

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Please show me where I said I expected BC to be fully baked. Only 1 set of cheerleaders is claiming that.
You’re right, you didn’t say that. So I take it you agree with the rest of my post?
 

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Ok @GoGoGadgetMachE and @macchiaz-o, upon reading into this further, I think it fair to say that CoPilot360 / BlueCruise (gah the terminology! I can’t tell if BlueCruise is replacing the CP360 branding or just going to be part of CP360 or maybe be considered totally separate from CP360) is a lot cheaper and arguably safer than Tesla Full Self Driving, BUT I really don’t think it can seriously be disputed that Ford’s autonomous driving offerings for the foreseeable future are also much more limited overall than Tesla FSD.

Putting aside how reliable and safe it is, FSD will basically drive the car for you on the highway, including nav and lane changes, it will even auto-steer on city streets, plus the driverless “summon” party trick.

The cross-traffic detection from Ford is a nice safety feature, and it would likely be useful for future self-driving functionality, and it’s weird if Tesla doesn’t have that, but I don’t consider this feature - or the eye detection - as giving Ford superior autonomous driving functionality. Rather, I would say that Ford may have more building blocks in place for safer autonomous driving in the future. But Tesla still currently provides much more autonomous driving functionality albeit for a much steeper price and with questionable safety. And it will be years if ever before Ford provides some of these things.

Finally, I don’t think Ford’s eye sensor versus Tesla technically requiring a hand to remain on the wheel seriously negates Tesla’s generally much more advanced autonomous driving functionality as described above.

I’m not advocating one way or the other - I’m simply interested in the truth. There is so much marketing smoke coming out of both Ford and Tesla, and so much inaccuracy and exaggeration on YouTube, that it’s tough to really tell what’s what. But I think I’ve got this basically right?
Firstly, my Mach-E can “self drive” the same Way the Tesla is supposed to be used. With intelligent cruise control and active lane centering turned on, the car will drive itself as long as you keep a hand on the wheel. Sure, I need to make lane changes manually, and change roads manually, but it drives itself with my hand on the wheel. BlueCruise is going to be a true SAE Level 3 system in that it will be hands free, on mapped, divided highways, with a driver paying attention and ready to take over in an emergency situation. Tesla is trying to bring SAE Level 5 autonomy without working their way there one step at a time, and their customers are paying the price... with their lives.

Elon, and his disciples, are to blame for these accidents, because without them out there telling people that Full Self Drive is here (almost), people wouldn’t be trying these stunts that are leading to harm. I hope t
tesla gets sued heavily for this incident because they are criminally negligent in my opinion, for not taking steps to insure people couldn’t do this when the car clearly isn’t ready for this yet.
 

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Well, yes and no, right? What governs? Isn’t map data potentially just as fallible as car sensors? Perhaps even more so? I’m not sure it’s as simple as saying “Ford uses map data, so it’s better.” The question is how the map data is utilized in the overall automation.
BlueCruise is going to use mapped data AND sensor data. So, “which is better” isn’t an issue. ”both” is better than either one alone.
 

jhalkias

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Is Tesla's software better: YES
Is Tesla's Hardware better: NO

Is Tesla's combination of Hardware and Software safer: NO

Is Tesla's Marketing and CEO misleading on the capabilities and safety of the above: YES

Is Ford's Marketing and CEO misleading on the capabilities and safety of the above: NO

Same with GM or virtually any other OEM as Ford - just substitute GM (or whoever) lest I be accused of "tribalism"
 

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Firstly, my Mach-E can “self drive” the same Way the Tesla is supposed to be used. With intelligent cruise control and active lane centering turned on, the car will drive itself as long as you keep a hand on the wheel. Sure, I need to make lane changes manually, and change roads manually, but it drives itself with my hand on the wheel. BlueCruise is going to be a true SAE Level 3 system in that it will be hands free, on mapped, divided highways, with a driver paying attention and ready to take over in an emergency situation. Tesla is trying to bring SAE Level 5 autonomy without working their way there one step at a time, and their customers are paying the price... with their lives.

Elon, and his disciples, are to blame for these accidents, because without them out there telling people that Full Self Drive is here (almost), people wouldn’t be trying these stunts that are leading to harm. I hope t
tesla gets sued heavily for this incident because they are criminally negligent in my opinion, for not taking steps to insure people couldn’t do this when the car clearly isn’t ready for this yet.
I believe you are a little confused on the SAE levels. BlueCruise will be a full Level 2 and seems to reach what is often referred to as 2+. However, Level 3 does not require an alert driver. BlueCruise requires the driver to remain alert to monitor the environment and that is what the eye tracking seeks to assure.

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