Where are the 2025s?

[MonkeyNutz]

I spoke to my local dealer because I want to upgrade to a 2025. I also wanted to order now before the tariffs return (my theory is that they never will because prices will rise dramatically and that is politically untenable to our president). I was told that In Transit really meant "put on hold, not shipping yet." Reason: Ford is trying to navigate the tariff issue. Also, dealers aren't allowed to take orders. Just sit and wait.

It’s looking more and more like the Auto industry is going to get a tariff exemption. There’s just no way these tariffs can move forward without killing the US auto market. Ultimately I think the tariffs are going to be short lived…. The pressure on the Trump administration to back off is already huge and growing. The reciprocal tariffs and boycotts are hitting hard. The US liquor industry, predominantly whiskey and bourbon from southern states, are already seeing tens of millions of $$ in canceled orders and returned product. Tariffs are not how we get ahead or enrich ourselves as a nation…. Tariffs should only exist where they can be agreed on between trade partners to help stabilize a market. Anyway….

Sponsored

 

[drjimtaylor]

It’s looking more and more like the Auto industry is going to get a tariff exemption. There’s just no way these tariffs can move forward without killing the US auto market. Ultimately I think the tariffs are going to be short lived…. The pressure on the Trump administration to back off is already huge and growing. The reciprocal tariffs and boycotts are hitting hard. The US liquor industry, predominantly whiskey and bourbon from southern states, are already seeing tens of millions of $$ in canceled orders and returned product. Tariffs are not how we get ahead or enrich ourselves as a nation…. Tariffs should only exist where they can be agreed on between trade partners to help stabilize a market. Anyway….

Without turning my post into a political statement, well said and agree entirely. I could continue my comments, but it's a political minefield that should be kept outside of this platform where, whatever our political differences, we all share a love of our "Pony" (with a few haters thrown in!).

 

[RetiredPonyboy]

Do you enjoy setting piles of money on fire? Why are you looking to pay new car pricing for battery, charging, and infotainment tech that is 4 years old and quickly becoming obsolete? You could get the same exact tech in a 23 or 24, with some original warranty left, for 50-60% of the price. Have you seen how rapidly these things depreciate?

If you want new, wait a few years for new tech. Otherwise buy used and save a bundle!

I'm not the OP but the main reason I want to buy a 2025 model is due to the addition of the heat pump. I would be making semi-frequent road trips, so range is an important factor for me, and the heat pump should significantly improve range in cold weather. Otherwise I agree with your point. If I could retrofit a '23 or '24 model with a heat pump, I'd be all in.

 

[cfredrickson]

I'm not the OP but the main reason I want to buy a 2025 model is due to the addition of the heat pump. I would be making semi-frequent road trips, so range is an important factor for me, and the heat pump should significantly improve range in cold weather. Otherwise I agree with your point. If I could retrofit a '23 or '24 model with a heat pump, I'd be all in.

This is the main reason held off buying one till this year.

 

[SonicBlue]

I'm not the OP but the main reason I want to buy a 2025 model is due to the addition of the heat pump. I would be making semi-frequent road trips, so range is an important factor for me, and the heat pump should significantly improve range in cold weather. Otherwise I agree with your point. If I could retrofit a '23 or '24 model with a heat pump, I'd be all in.

No offense, but I seriously doubt the heat pump is going to meaningfully extend your range in winter. The vast majority of range reduction in winter is simply due to the cold negatively impacting the battery chemistry - not use of the heater. Have we actually seen any data on how much this heat pump actually impacts efficiency? I would bet it is less than 0.2 miles per kWh.

 

[RetiredPonyboy]

No offense, but I seriously doubt the heat pump is going to meaningfully extend your range in winter. The vast majority of range reduction in winter is simply due to the cold negatively impacting the battery chemistry - not use of the heater. Have we actually seen any data on how much this heat pump actually impacts efficiency? I would bet it is less than 0.2 miles per kWh.

Fair point. I'll see what I can find out in the Tesla forums, as Tesla switched to heat pumps in 2020.

 

[Mach1E]

Fair point. I'll see what I can find out in the Tesla forums, as Tesla switched to heat pumps in 2020.

3-5% efficiency gain is what I’ve read.

But only at specific temperatures, the “kinda cold” winter temps like 20-50 degrees. Outside those ranges the gains go down.

 

[dpnelson]

Fair point. I'll see what I can find out in the Tesla forums, as Tesla switched to heat pumps in 2020.

The most objective thing I found was someone who put the tesla systems side by side and heated the cabins without driving. The heat pump used around 1/3 the power.

Given that there are conditions where the Mach-e's 5 kWh PTC is not sufficient (meaning it's at full power and not keeping up), 2/3 reduction could save up to 3.33 kW. Some very rough math based on EPA figures gives us a regular output between 20 and 25 kW for highway driving under ideal conditions. Saving 3.33 kW from being added to that is pretty significant.

 

[phil]

A new car is a luxury purchase.

You can’t logic a luxury purchase.

Sure you can. You just need the right logic.

Start with this: You can't take it with you. Or "The Wealth of Nations".

 

[E90alex]

If they didn’t make much of a difference, I don’t think Ford would have spent the time and money to engineer a whole new complicated heat pump based heating and cooling system.

Consider the 2024 Mach-E extended range AWD is rated for 300 miles with a 91 kWh battery and the 2025 is rated for 300 miles with an 88 kWh battery. So going by that, that’s a 3.4% efficiency improvement in ideal conditions, not even in the cold.

I don’t think anyone has done a direct side to side comparison of the Lightning with and without heat pump to definitively say how much difference it makes.

 

[RetiredPonyboy]

The most objective thing I found was someone who put the tesla systems side by side and heated the cabins without driving. The heat pump used around 1/3 the power.

Given that there are conditions where the Mach-e's 5 kWh PTC is not sufficient (meaning it's at full power and not keeping up), 2/3 reduction could save up to 3.33 kW. Some very rough math based on EPA figures gives us a regular output between 20 and 25 kW for highway driving under ideal conditions. Saving 3.33 kW from being added to that is pretty significant.

Here are a couple of links to independent studies. Of course, nobody's been able to use a 2025 Mach-E in a study yet, so there's no data to compare to. Draw your own conclusions, but my takeaway is that a heat pump should provide significant range improvement, with the caveat (as stated above by @Mach1E) that the benefit decreases exponentially in very cold weather.

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/heat-pumps

https://www.gridserve.com/what-is-a-heat-pump-and-how-can-it-help-increase-electric-car-range/

 

[kens]

Here are a couple of links to independent studies. Of course, nobody's been able to use a 2025 Mach-E in a study yet, so there's no data to compare to. Draw your own conclusions, but my takeaway is that a heat pump should provide significant range improvement, with the caveat (as stated above by @Mach1E) that the benefit decreases exponentially in very cold weather.

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/heat-pumps

https://www.gridserve.com/what-is-a-heat-pump-and-how-can-it-help-increase-electric-car-range/

They also reduced the battery size in the '25 for trims below the GT from 91kWh to 88kWh, the GT stays the same at 91kWh. So the efficiency gains were used to shrink the battery. They will save you in kWh, so slightly better charge times/costs, but you probably shouldn't expect the range to go up.

 

[Mike G]

Sorry...to me the heat pump is just not worth the difference in the overall out-the-door price when comparing a '25 model to one of the '23 GT-PEs my dealer still has on the lot. No market for them here in N. AL (except a few folks like me). And I'm sure they'd be willing to move them. They were sent to them as stock, not ordered. So it's not like somebody ordered them and then backed out. They've been sitting there since the day all three came off the truck. We refer to them as the "Three Amigos"....if anybody is interested, ask for Ashley or Thomas and tell them I sent you. I'm not looking to get anything out of this except the satisfaction of seeing these three get good homes.

 

[SonicBlue]

If they didn’t make much of a difference, I don’t think Ford would have spent the time and money to engineer a whole new complicated heat pump based heating and cooling system.

Consider the 2024 Mach-E extended range AWD is rated for 300 miles with a 91 kWh battery and the 2025 is rated for 300 miles with an 88 kWh battery. So going by that, that’s a 3.4% efficiency improvement in ideal conditions, not even in the cold.

I don’t think anyone has done a direct side to side comparison of the Lightning with and without heat pump to definitively say how much difference it makes.

Even if you trust Ford’s numbers, that’s not a big difference, and it doesn’t result in greater range. Unless you care about spending a few pennies on electricity, efficiency alone doesn’t matter all that much.

 

[davegram]

I'm going for a 2025 because of a combo of heat pump and the sports appearance package availability on premiums (giving me combo of appearance and ventilated seats). For some folks, I'm sure it's not worth buying new vs, say, getting a 2024 gt for less. Which I strongly considered. For me, it's my first new car purchase for myself, and I plan on driving this car for a decade or more, so I'm going for it! I'm a frugal guy, so it's a leap for me.

Sponsored