FORD FURTHER POSTPONES NA PRODUCTION RESTART TO PROTECT WORKFORCE - UNKNOWN RESTART DATE

[Ken7]

Not to minimize the deaths, but let’s keep in mind that the current daily rates are no longer comparable to those from even a week or two ago. They are now recording even ‘suspected’ Covid-19 deaths. So I’d suspect the numbers appear somewhat elevated.

It’s also interesting to note that the VA study that the media got all excited about, showing hydroxy to be a poor performer, was flawed for a variety of reasons. So I’d throw that one out. It’s results never made much sense.

It’s also interesting that some still seem to ignore the deaths that will occur as our economy continues to be shuttered. They might not like to admit it, but deaths from drug OD, suicides, failure to get proper medical attention and other causative factors will continue to spiral. They could well exceed the havoc brought about by the virus itself. Of course, not surprisingly, the media largely ignores this.

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[ChasingCoral]

[QUOTE="Ken7, post: 13396, member:
It’s also interesting that some still seem to ignore the deaths that will occur as our economy continues to be shuttered. They might not like to admit it, but deaths from drug OD, suicides, failure to get proper medical attention and other causative factors will continue to spiral. They could well exceed the havoc brought about by the virus itself. Of course, not surprisingly, the media largely ignores this.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for bringing up that old saw. So please enlighten us. How many deaths will that be? Please be sure to provide statistics of exactly how many deaths due to the shuttered economy is the media ignoring? Make sure your statistics are above reproach as that seems to be the standard you demand of others.

 

[dbsb3233]

That’s 332 more Americans than the 1,806 that die each day, on average, from heart disease, the former leading cause of death in the US.

It's not "the former". You can't compare a worst day of the year to an average day. Apples and oranges.

Latest projection for COVID deaths in the US for 2020 is 60,000. That would barely crack the top-10 (suicide is #10 at roughly 60,000/yr). And it's only 1/11th the annual deaths from heart disease, and 1/10th the annual deaths from cancer.

Obviously things that kill people are bad, but we should keep it in perspective.

 

[SJ_Okay]

Wow... it’s like a war zone in here! Go easy on each other... things are bad enough at the moment, this forum should really be a safe space!

Did anyone catch the article on LG Chem? They have gotten approval from the polish government to fly in battery engineers from South Korea to continue their battery production. There won’t be a hold up on their side, which is great news!

 

[Ken7]

Thanks for bringing up that old saw. So please enlighten us. How many deaths will that be? Please be sure to provide statistics of exactly how many deaths due to the shuttered economy is the media ignoring? Make sure your statistics are above reproach as that seems to be the standard you demand of others.

At least you apparently agreed with my first two points...unless you’re using the LYMPQ (I’ve already forgotten his forum handle) method of responding to a post.

I’m not sure where I got into a discussion with someone about making sure their statistics were ‘above reproach’, but whatever. Honestly, you’d have to be in denial of the human condition or lacking empathy to be surprised that these negative impacts could occur with protracted closures of the economy and its impact on unemployment and the resulting ramifications.

So, as requested, here’s just some supporting data for what I stated, including one paper on the subject. In the first link Goldman Sachs has already underestimated the unemployment rate, so things could actually get worse than predicted. BTW, Google in its typically politically biased fashion, makes finding sources for this difficult. It’s easier on other search engines. Just like Facebook, where Zuckerberg is the sole arbiter of the ‘facts’, so is Google:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...s-the-number-of-estimated-coronavirus-deaths/

https://digitalcommons.bryant.edu/c...redir=1&article=1019&context=honors_economics

https://www.forbes.com/sites/melani...d-to-economic-crisis-study-says/#32f831827ae2

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4473496/#B42

https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20110414/suicides-go-up-when-economy-goes-down#1

https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-recession-suicide-prevent-20140611-story.html

 

[c max]

About a month or so ago, I posted a comment something like this "I don't mean to offend anyone, but shouldn't we, on a car forum talk about the MME......I didn't say anything about what people should do, but said what I would do in terms of getting my info on the virus.......one poster jumped all over me, of course, misquoted me as well.......all I did was state my opinion........after not visiting this forum, but going to the other, I decided to take another look here......the car info is great here but who needs this hatred that is going on both sides of this political stuff......I consider myself a conservative progressive and I have a question that I asked my friends on both sides, "What if it was Obama saying and doing what Trump is?, would the Obama people suddenly begin to support him, and would the Trump supporters suddenly begin to disagree with Obama???........in your mind switch the roles, and answer the question in your mind, would your opinion on what's going on change because of who is saying it or truely what is said........if it was MSNBC saying what FOX is saying, and FOX saying what MSNBC was saying would your opinion be different......I ask my friends NOT to answer me, but just keep the answer to themselves.........I hope all are doing well, and are keeping as safe as their opinions allow......

 

[Ken7]

It's not "the former". You can't compare a worst day of the year to an average day. Apples and oranges.

Sure you can, when you’re desperately trying to make a point and stretching things works for you.

 

[ChasingCoral]

It's not "the former". You can't compare a worst day of the year to an average day. Apples and oranges.

No, it's definitely oranges and oranges. When an orange farmer in Florida loses 1/4 of his crop in a bad freeze he doesn't try to claim that doesn't count because it was only one night. He just lost 1/4 of his crop and they're not coming back. Dead is dead. For April, it is likely that Covid-19 will be the leading cause of death. If we are smart in how we open back up we can limit it to April. If we open up too fast we can add May, and maybe June or July. It's up to our leaders to be smart and work together to beat this thing.

 

[ChasingCoral]

At least you apparently agreed with my first two points...unless you’re using the LYMPQ (I’ve already forgotten his forum handle) method of responding to a post.

I’m not sure where I got into a discussion with someone about making sure their statistics were ‘above reproach’, but whatever. Honestly, you’d have to be in denial of the human condition or lacking empathy to be surprised that these negative impacts could occur with protracted closures of the economy and its impact on unemployment and the resulting ramifications.

So, as requested, here’s just some supporting data for what I stated, including one paper on the subject. In the first link Goldman Sachs has already underestimated the unemployment rate, so things could actually get worse than predicted. BTW, Google in its typically politically biased fashion, makes finding sources for this difficult. It’s easier on other search engines. Just like Facebook, where Zuckerberg is the sole arbiter of the ‘facts’, so is Google:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...s-the-number-of-estimated-coronavirus-deaths/

https://digitalcommons.bryant.edu/c...redir=1&article=1019&context=honors_economics

https://www.forbes.com/sites/melani...d-to-economic-crisis-study-says/#32f831827ae2

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4473496/#B42

https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20110414/suicides-go-up-when-economy-goes-down#1

https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-recession-suicide-prevent-20140611-story.html

Classic. So, you don't take the time to answer the question, just toss out a bunch of links. OK, based on what you provided, the last of these says:
"In the United States, the suicide rate was rising even before the subprime loan crisis sent global financial markets into a tailspin. Data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show that the rate accelerated 4.8% after the meltdown, resulting in 4,750 “excess suicides” between 2007 and 2010, the study said."

So, we'll have to remember that the based on what you provided, the cost of the economic portion of this event will be about 4,750 suicides over 3 years. That's 2-3 days of Covid-19 deaths and about 4.3 suicides per day (about 2% of the current daily Covid-19 mortality in Michigan alone).

Thanks for letting us know that it is a legitimate concern but a small fraction of the direct loss of human lives due to Covid-19.

 

[ChasingCoral]

At least you apparently agreed with my first two points...unless you’re using the LYMPQ (I’ve already forgotten his forum handle) method of responding to a post.

Not at all Ken7, simply pulling out one of your red herring points at a time for discussion. Let's look at those other two, shall we?

Not to minimize the deaths, but let’s keep in mind that the current daily rates are no longer comparable to those from even a week or two ago. They are now recording even ‘suspected’ Covid-19 deaths. So I’d suspect the numbers appear somewhat elevated.

Please note that there was no discussion of how mortality changed through time. The "change" you are claiming was an effort by the CDC to clarify guidelines and improve consistent reporting. Different states had been following different practices. The CDC issued clarifications to try to gain consistency across states as well as consistency with other disease outbreak reporting. You can find them in the CDC guidance:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf

It’s also interesting to note that the VA study that the media got all excited about, showing hydroxy to be a poor performer, was flawed for a variety of reasons. So I’d throw that one out. It’s results never made much sense.

Well, it's a good thing you're not my doctor. I would want my doctor to be listening to NIH guidance. That VA study was considered when the NIH issued its 21 April update to the "Coronavirus 2019 Treatment Guidelines" https://covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov
In it, the NIH expert panel stated (my underlining):

Antivirals:

• There are insufficient clinical data to recommend either for or against using chloroquineor hydroxychloroquine for the treatment of COVID-19 (AIII).
  • If chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine is used, clinicians should monitor the patient for adverse effects, especially prolonged QTc interval (AIII).
• There are insufficient clinical data to recommend either for or against using the investigational antiviral drug remdesivir for the treatment of COVID-19 (AIII).
  • Remdesivir as a treatment for COVID-19 is currently being investigated in clinical trials and is also available through expanded access and compassionate use mechanisms for certain patient populations.
• Except in the context of a clinical trial, the COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel (the Panel) recommends against the use of the following drugs for the treatment of COVID-19:
  • The combination of hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin (AIII) because of the potential for toxicities.
  • Lopinavir/ritonavir (AI) or other HIV protease inhibitors (AIII) because of unfavorable pharmacodynamics and negative clinical trial data.

The media attention you should have been watching wasn't the result of that preliminary trial, it was what the top doctors said about it. So while you, with your immense medical expertise, would throw it out, the top doctors in this area considered the trial to be important and potentially life saving because of the consistent patterns potentially deadly side effects found in the VA and several other trials. I'll listen to the real experts if I am unfortunately enough to catch Covid-19.

Hopefully the folks at Ford-NA are listening to real medical experts as they determine when and how it will be smart to open.

 

[dbsb3233]

No, it's definitely oranges and oranges. When an orange farmer in Florida loses 1/4 of his crop in a bad freeze he doesn't try to claim that doesn't count because it was only one night. He just lost 1/4 of his crop and they're not coming back. Dead is dead. For April, it is likely that Covid-19 will be the leading cause of death. If we are smart in how we open back up we can limit it to April. If we open up too fast we can add May, and maybe June or July. It's up to our leaders to be smart and work together to beat this thing.

Nobody measures it as "leading cause of death for the day". Or even "for the month". Classic case of taking a statistic and twisting it into something to produce a distorted impression.

What is measured weekly and monthly, however, are jobs lost and unemployment. 4.42 million more jobs lost this week. That's 26 million jobs lost in the US in 5 weeks.

https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...41876464/26-million-jobs-lost-in-just-5-weeks

 

[Ken7]

Classic. So, you don't take the time to answer the question, just toss out a bunch of links. OK, based on what you provided, the last of these says:
"In the United States, the suicide rate was rising even before the subprime loan crisis sent global financial markets into a tailspin. Data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show that the rate accelerated 4.8% after the meltdown, resulting in 4,750 “excess suicides” between 2007 and 2010, the study said."

So, we'll have to remember that the based on what you provided, the cost of the economic portion of this event will be about 4,750 suicides over 3 years. That's 2-3 days of Covid-19 deaths and about 4.3 suicides per day (about 2% of the current daily Covid-19 mortality in Michigan alone).

Thanks for letting us know that it is a legitimate concern but a small fraction of the direct loss of human lives due to Covid-19.

First you asked for references. I gave you 6. That wasn't good enough. Then I didn't realize I had to read, digest and spit out 'executive summaries' for you. Absolutely unreal. Oh, and thanks for selectively excising one point out of 6 references, including Webmd, a lengthy study on the topic and others...right out of LYTMCQ's playbook. This is some special kind of denial. I'm sorry to see that you don't have the empathy to see how this could happen when people are desperate, without income and no idea if and when they'll ever have their jobs back. I'm actually sorry for you. I really am.

I see no point in continuing this discussion, it will get nowhere. No matter what or how many sources I provide, or where they come from, they won't be good enough.

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