VW to divest EA stake

[BMT1071]

Our local Target put in exactly 2 charging points for the store parking lot (which is huge). While they're generally full, there are rarely any BEV's parked elsewhere in the lot. If you want to go to Target, you'll go but not because of the L2 charger (or DCFC as the case may be). If your retail establishment has ample parking and you're near an interstate, you might get slightly more traffic for your restrooms but I doubt it's going to be a huge draw.

Agreed that L2 isn't a huge draw for people that have home L2 EVSEs. DCFC is a different story. Currently, and likely for several years, anyone taking a road trip is using an app to figure out where the DCFCs are and that is where they are going to stop. If a store/restaurant/coffee shop near a highway installs some DCFCs they are virtually guaranteeing themselves additional customers.

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[Maquis]

Your theory doesn't go along with many of the posts I've seen regarding DCFC locations. People frequently complain about having nothing to do while their vehicle charges. My point was that a convenience store is not a place you can easily spend 30+ minutes, but a restaurant or larger store would be.

Based on my personal experience charging near a convenience store, they make more money than if I was buying gasoline for my ICE vehicle. When getting gasoline, I fill up and drive away. When charging, I've gone inside and made a purchase every time. Usually a bottle of water or iced tea, which they make more money off of than 12 gallons of gasoline.

Another aspect, if you go into a restaurant while DCFCing at a pay-by-minute station, you'd better be monitoring in order to avoid paying $0.32/min for 12KW once you hit 80%!

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

Agreed that L2 isn't a huge draw for people that have home L2 EVSEs. DCFC is a different story. Currently, and likely for several years, anyone taking a road trip is using an app to figure out where the DCFCs are and that is where they are going to stop. If a store/restaurant/coffee shop near a highway installs some DCFCs they are virtually guaranteeing themselves additional customers.

Some. But not that many. And if the store is paying for the chargers, they'll likely never recoup the costs. There needs to be a great deal more BEVs on the road and being used for long-distance road trips before these will pay off for businesses.

Just my opinion. I've been known to be wrong.

 

[Jimmy2]

The demand for public charging stations will never be the same as for gas stations, but I disagree that there is no demand. Many living in cities, apartments, etc will always need public charging, and long distance travel in any EV certainly requires fast public charging. The problem for those "rest stop" chargers that are on major travel routes is that they have short periods of high demand mixed with longer periods of very low usage. They are also harmed by utility companies that have excessive fees for exactly that usage pattern. Batteries can help mitigate those demand fees, but that adds a whole new expense of its own.

I didn't mean there would be no demand, I did mean that the demand will not be sufficient to create profit. I bet Elon figured this out already. I wonder if it may explain why some of his charging stations in larger cities will offer more than just charging?

 

[dbsb3233]

Our local Target put in exactly 2 charging points for the store parking lot (which is huge). While they're generally full, there are rarely any BEV's parked elsewhere in the lot. If you want to go to Target, you'll go but not because of the L2 charger (or DCFC as the case may be). If your retail establishment has ample parking and you're near an interstate, you might get slightly more traffic for your restrooms but I doubt it's going to be a huge draw.

Yep. I should have made that clearer... I meant for road trip charging.

Hopefully locals will be doing 99% of their charging where they live (or work).

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

Yep. I should have made that clearer... I meant for road trip charging.

Hopefully locals will be doing 99% of their charging where they live (or work).

Hawaii is a bit unique in this regard. There has been a law on the books for about 10 years now requiring at least an L2 charger (or chargers iirc) at all parking lots open to the public above a certain threshold. The vast majority of those lots have not bothered to comply. New (enough) places like the Target store have complied. Nothing requires (apparently) those same chargers to work though.

 

[dbsb3233]

Based on my personal experience charging near a convenience store, they make more money than if I was buying gasoline for my ICE vehicle. When getting gasoline, I fill up and drive away. When charging, I've gone inside and made a purchase every time. Usually a bottle of water or iced tea, which they make more money off of than 12 gallons of gasoline.

That's probably accurate (from more time to kill). But that's looking at from just the solo customer side. Looking at it from the host business side, they need to multiply that by the number of customers. And that's a tiny fraction of gas customers. Not just now, but even after BEVs reach their market peak. Figure something like 90% of BEV charging is done on L2 at home (or work, school, hotel, etc). So even if the # of vehicles were equal, that's 90% less retail DCFC charges (vs gas).

And really, I think that will be closer to 95%. Tesla started off by coaxing a lot of early buyers in with Supercharging as the norm, but that's a very bad model going forward. DCFC is precious, volume-constrained, bad for the batteries full-time, and expensive. L2 needs to be the model for nearly all local charging, with DCFC being used for those driving >200 miles same day (i.e. mostly road trips or very heavy users).

 

[trutolife27]

That's probably accurate (from more time to kill). But that's looking at from just the solo customer side. Looking at it from the host business side, they need to multiply that by the number of customers. And that's a tiny fraction of gas customers. Not just now, but even after BEVs reach their market peak. Figure something like 90% of BEV charging is done on L2 at home (or work, school, hotel, etc). So even if the # of vehicles were equal, that's 90% less retail DCFC charges (vs gas).

And really, I think that will be closer to 95%. Tesla started off by coaxing a lot of early buyers in with Supercharging as the norm, but that's a very bad model going forward. DCFC is precious, volume-constrained, bad for the batteries full-time, and expensive. L2 needs to be the model for nearly all local charging, with DCFC being used for those driving >200 miles same day (i.e. mostly road trips or very heavy users).

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[Maquis]

That's probably accurate (from more time to kill). But that's looking at from just the solo customer side. Looking at it from the host business side, they need to multiply that by the number of customers. And that's a tiny fraction of gas customers. Not just now, but even after BEVs reach their market peak. Figure something like 90% of BEV charging is done on L2 at home (or work, school, hotel, etc). So even if the # of vehicles were equal, that's 90% less retail DCFC charges (vs gas).

And really, I think that will be closer to 95%. Tesla started off by coaxing a lot of early buyers in with Supercharging as the norm, but that's a very bad model going forward. DCFC is precious, volume-constrained, bad for the batteries full-time, and expensive. L2 needs to be the model for nearly all local charging, with DCFC being used for those driving >200 miles same day (i.e. mostly road trips or very heavy users).

No argument there.
I guess my point is that the profit per BEV customer is likely to be much more than per ICE customer. As you point out, the number of BEV customers at the convenience store will not come anywhere close to that of ICE customers anytime soon (if ever).

 

[JoeDimwit]

I’m curious what percentage of gasoline/diesel customers buy anything besides their fuel when they are at a gas station. And then, what that equates to per fuel customer regardless of ancillary purchase. The. What those numbers look like for EV customers at charging stations. It might be that it’s possible to make the same money off of less customers per day if you have them captive for 3-4 times as long.

 

[OlyPen]

Yeah Shell has done such a stellar job with Greenlots, it’s almost a match made in Hell. How to destroy DCFC in Hawaii? Make them all Greenlots.

In fact, that’s such a bad idea, it’s probably a slam dunk.

What?!? I think the issue is that Shell hasn't perfected a gas generator to power DC fast charging station yet. Once they do that, Greenlots will be *amazing*!

 

[dbsb3233]

I’m curious what percentage of gasoline/diesel customers buy anything besides their fuel when they are at a gas station. And then, what that equates to per fuel customer regardless of ancillary purchase. The. What those numbers look like for EV customers at charging stations. It might be that it’s possible to make the same money off of less customers per day if you have them captive for 3-4 times as long.

Depends on the assumptions. My assumption is that as this all matures, the vast majority of DCFC charging will be people on road trips. And gas refueling on road trips probably has a significantly different profile than routine refueling near home.

We've done 4000 miles in road trips in our Mach-E so far, mostly using EA (19 charges). There's been 5 meals in there while charging, and probably 2 more small purchases in Walmart. The rest were just bathroom breaks, walks, waiting at the car, etc. (no $$).

 

[JoeDimwit]

Depends on the assumptions. My assumption is that as this all matures, the vast majority of DCFC charging will be people on road trips. And gas refueling on road trips probably has a significantly different profile than routine refueling near home.

We've done 4000 miles in road trips in our Mach-E so far, mostly using EA (19 charges). There's been 5 meals in there while charging, and probably 2 more small purchases in Walmart. The rest were just bathroom breaks, walks, waiting at the car, etc. (no $$).

This is exactly what I’m curious about on a macro level.

 

[BMT1071]

Depends on the assumptions. My assumption is that as this all matures, the vast majority of DCFC charging will be people on road trips. And gas refueling on road trips probably has a significantly different profile than routine refueling near home.

We've done 4000 miles in road trips in our Mach-E so far, mostly using EA (19 charges). There's been 5 meals in there while charging, and probably 2 more small purchases in Walmart. The rest were just bathroom breaks, walks, waiting at the car, etc. (no $$).

We don't road trip much, but my traveling companions rarely miss an opportunity to grab a drink/snack. For my family 19 charges would likely equal 18 or 19 purchases.

 

[trutolife27]

I’m curious what percentage of gasoline/diesel customers buy anything besides their fuel when they are at a gas station. And then, what that equates to per fuel customer regardless of ancillary purchase. The. What those numbers look like for EV customers at charging stations. It might be that it’s possible to make the same money off of less customers per day if you have them captive for 3-4 times as long.

It's a lot. A family member owns two. Gas, they make nothing on really. That is why you started seeing gas stations serving and making food. The profit margins are massive with markup.

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