November 3rd 2021 Revised Tax incentives for EVs from House of Reps.

[kennethjk]

The current bill has “Sedans” and then Trucks, SUVs, and Vans right? I can’t imagine the Mach E falls under a sedan

Right now it’s classified as a small station wagon, hard to believe but that is what they say it is

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[blazinazn]

Right now it’s classified as a small station wagon, hard to believe but that is what they say it is

I believe that but a station wagon is also not a sedan and is not listed as a class under the current bill so it’ll be interesting to see what ends up happening. I imagine Ford is working hard to get a new classification

 

[kennethjk]

I believe that but a station wagon is also not a sedan and is not listed as a class under the current bill so it’ll be interesting to see what ends up happening. I imagine Ford is working hard to get a new classification

still have to wait for reconcilibation, maybe Ford got to the senators and the sedan was added by them and will be helpful

From your lips to gD’s ears.

 

[Larry Paul]

2021 models purchased in 2021 will be covered by the previous law, which means $7,500 non refundable credit non carry forward credit, correct? The new law will not be retro for 2021 tax year.

The Mach E is an SUV according to the US government (NTHSA), the manufacturer and all competing vehicles in this size and class say it is an SUV. One place incorrectly stated it is a wagon, however, every other source says it is a SUV. It is not a wagon.

Right now it’s classified as a small station wagon, hard to believe but that is what they say it is

Where are you getting this that it is a wagon? According to what "official" source.

EVERYWHERE I see it is called an SUV.

The Mach E is an SUV according to the US government (NTHSA):

Mustang Mach-E BEV

SUV

the manufacturer advertises it as:
2022 Ford® Mustang Mach-E SUV

The media calls it an SUV:
Car and driver: "In giving the award to the Mustang Mach-E, Car and Driver staffers credited the SUV's combination of practicality and performance."

Motor Trend, Edmunds, Electrek ALL call the Mustang Mach-E an SUV

USnews.com:
"The 2022 Ford Mustang Mach-E is a great electric SUV"

Forbes: "Ford Mustang Mach-E Review: Yes, The New Mustang Is An Electric SUV"

Business insider: The Ford Mustang Mach-E was named SUV of the year

IIHS: Top safety pick - 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E MIDSIZE SUV / 4-DOOR SUV

carmagazine.co.uk: "...pony badges on an electric SUV"

Consumer reports: "...For starters, it’s an SUV with room for five"

Carvana says: "Browse Ford Mustang SUV Inventory"

Theverge.com: "That was enough giddyup for me in an SUV of this size..."

Kelly Blue Book: "The 2022 Ford Mustang Mach-E is an electric SUV..."

all competing vehicles in this size and class say they are SUVs (Tesla Model Y, BMW, Audi, even the smaller VW id4 is an SUV etc.etc.. Perhaps one place incorrectly somewhere stated it is a wagon, however, every other source says it is a SUV. It is not a wagon.

The above was a quick google search...and there were dozens of references to the Mach E SUV. Not one calls it a "wagon" (and it does not even meet the criteria of a wagon as it does not have a "D" pillar or a lift gate that is the most common definition of a "wagon".

It will be very difficult to have the IRS suddenly decide on their own that the Mach E is NOT an SUV when the world has called it and other very similar form factor vehicles an SUV.

Please don't think that one person that incorrectly called it a wagon suddenly makes it so...it is an SUV according to 99.9% of rest of the world.

 

[Draconfier]

The Mach E is an SUV according to the US government (NTHSA), the manufacturer and all competing vehicles in this size and class say it is an SUV. One place incorrectly stated it is a wagon, however, every other source says it is a SUV. It is not a wagon.

Where are you getting this that it is a wagon? According to what "official" source.

EVERYWHERE I see it is called an SUV.

The Mach E is an SUV according to the US government (NTHSA):

Mustang Mach-E BEV

SUV

the manufacturer advertises it as:
2022 Ford® Mustang Mach-E SUV

The media calls it an SUV:
Car and driver: "In giving the award to the Mustang Mach-E, Car and Driver staffers credited the SUV's combination of practicality and performance."

Motor Trend, Edmunds, Electrek ALL call the Mustang Mach-E an SUV

USnews.com:
"The 2022 Ford Mustang Mach-E is a great electric SUV"

Forbes: "Ford Mustang Mach-E Review: Yes, The New Mustang Is An Electric SUV"

Business insider: The Ford Mustang Mach-E was named SUV of the year

IIHS: Top safety pick - 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E MIDSIZE SUV / 4-DOOR SUV

carmagazine.co.uk: "...pony badges on an electric SUV"

Consumer reports: "...For starters, it’s an SUV with room for five"

Carvana says: "Browse Ford Mustang SUV Inventory"

Theverge.com: "That was enough giddyup for me in an SUV of this size..."

Kelly Blue Book: "The 2022 Ford Mustang Mach-E is an electric SUV..."

all competing vehicles in this size and class say they are SUVs (Tesla Model Y, BMW, Audi, even the smaller VW id4 is an SUV etc.etc.. Perhaps one place incorrectly somewhere stated it is a wagon, however, every other source says it is a SUV. It is not a wagon.

The above was a quick google search...and there were dozens of references to the Mach E SUV. Not one calls it a "wagon" (and it does not even meet the criteria of a wagon as it does not have a "D" pillar or a lift gate that is the most common definition of a "wagon".

It will be very difficult to have the IRS suddenly decide on their own that the Mach E is NOT an SUV when the world has called it and other very similar form factor vehicles an SUV.

Please don't think that one person that incorrectly called it a wagon suddenly makes it so...it is an SUV according to 99.9% of rest of the world.

Unfortunately this is what he was referencing, the below screen shot is the classification by the EPA. This was mentioned in the earliest part of this post. Before getting angry at someone who has read the previous posts and correctly quoted the entity that will determine most likely the classification of the Mustang Mach-e, dont just automatically assume that because multiple sources have called it an SUV that the Federal government won't use the "simar to epa" verbiage from the bill to classify it as the other/sedan which knocks it out of the suv ranking and thereby most of the upper end msrp folks of fully decked out Premium EX4, GT, &GTPE will not be eligible for the $7500 tax credit if the bill is passed by both the house and senate and becomes law.

 

[Larry Paul]

Unfortunately this is what he was referencing, the below screen shot is the classification by the EPA. This was mentioned in the earliest part of this post. Before getting angry at someone who has read the previous posts and correctly quoted the entity that will determine most likely the classification of the Mustang Mach-e, dont just automatically assume that because multiple sources have called it an SUV that the Federal government won't use the "simar to epa" verbiage from the bill to classify it as the other/sedan which knocks it out of the suv ranking and thereby most of the upper end msrp folks of fully decked out Premium EX4, GT, &GTPE will not be eligible for the $7500 tax credit if the bill is passed by both the house and senate and becomes law.

I have said most of this before if you read the thread. Regardless…I don’t see how that one website fueleconomy.gov supersedes NTHSA the manufacturer or every reference and many more that say otherwise.

Please note that while there is a statement that says EPA in the header, there is also a reference to the DOE in the header, but most signficantly this website says what it is:

“The official US government source for fuel economy information”

They are NOT the authority of classifying vehicle classes or sizes. Fueleconomy.gov simply made an error…The Mach E is clearly not a small wagon based on the shape either.

Is this below an error about the Chevy Trax?

The Chevy Trax is a small SUV. It is tiny compared to the Mach E.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=43811

That says the Trax is a “Small Sport Utility Vehicle” that is only 167” long…but somehow that is an SUV. The Mach E is 19” longer at 186” long…and is less wagon shaped than the Trax.

I just don’t see how one error in data entry on one fuel economy website that is clearly an outlier is somehow going to override ALL of the other data that is clearly stating that it IS an SUV…

The IRS is not somehow beholden to look at fueleconomy.org as the one and only authority and just ignore ALL other information.

There is nothing on the EPA.gov website that rates the Mach E as anything size or otherwise that I could find. That is not the official source…nor is that part of the EPA’s role. The IRS ruling is not about fuel economy.

I think that the only US government website that actually classifies vehicles by size- is the NTHSA. They a far more credible government source to reference-in my opinion… and they specifically call out the Mach E as an SUV.

I also find the actual manufacturer and media and how other competitors advertise their similar vehicles …however, if that was the only source-that said SUV that would be questionable-but it is not. It is all of the other sites and many more that I listed.

Since there is no official black and white definition for what an SUV is or is not, again, and by virtually everyone the Mach E is called an SUV. I just cannot see how that one website with an outlier of data is going to be the only authority that somehow tells the IRS that the world journalists, the manufacturer of all other vehicles in this class and the NTHSA that they are wrong…

But in the case of the Mach E, I think there would be some kind of legal action against the IRS and Ford if the IRS chooses some random fuel economy website as the only official source and it somehow just some random person makes an decision that cannot be questioned…

Even though I think it is more of a crossover utility vehicle (CUV)-but that is not an official classification of vehicles. For better or worse…the Mach E is clearly an SUV according to all of the other authorities.

 

[Dancefreak]

Unfortunately this is what he was referencing, the below screen shot is the classification by the EPA. This was mentioned in the earliest part of this post. Before getting angry at someone who has read the previous posts and correctly quoted the entity that will determine most likely the classification of the Mustang Mach-e, dont just automatically assume that because multiple sources have called it an SUV that the Federal government won't use the "simar to epa" verbiage from the bill to classify it as the other/sedan which knocks it out of the suv ranking and thereby most of the upper end msrp folks of fully decked out Premium EX4, GT, &GTPE will not be eligible for the $7500 tax credit if the bill is passed by both the house and senate and becomes law.

But if you’re going to take fueleconomy.gov as the driver here rather than the outlier, then you need to consider that sedans are classified separately from station wagons there. As station wagon isn’t mentioned at all in the bill, there’s far greater evidence to lead to a conclusion that it will be lumped in with SUVs versus being lumped in with sedans.

 

[Draconfier]

I have said most of this before if you read the thread. Regardless…I don’t see how that one website fueleconomy.gov supersedes NTHSA the manufacturer or every reference and many more that say otherwise.

Please note that while there is a statement that says EPA in the header, there is also a reference to the DOE in the header, but most signficantly this website says what it is:

“The official US government source for fuel economy information”

They are NOT the authority of classifying vehicle classes or sizes. Fueleconomy.gov simply made an error…The Mach E is clearly not a small wagon based on the shape either.

Is this below an error about the Chevy Trax?

The Chevy Trax is a small SUV. It is tiny compared to the Mach E.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=43811

That says the Trax is a “Small Sport Utility Vehicle” that is only 167” long…but somehow that is an SUV. The Mach E is 19” longer at 186” long…and is less wagon shaped than the Trax.

I just don’t see how one error in data entry on one fuel economy website that is clearly an outlier is somehow going to override ALL of the other data that is clearly stating that it IS an SUV…

The IRS is not somehow beholden to look at fueleconomy.org as the one and only authority and just ignore ALL other information.

There is nothing on the EPA.gov website that rates the Mach E as anything size or otherwise that I could find. That is not the official source…nor is that part of the EPA’s role. The IRS ruling is not about fuel economy.

I think that the only US government website that actually classifies vehicles by size- is the NTHSA. They a far more credible government source to reference-in my opinion… and they specifically call out the Mach E as an SUV.

I also find the actual manufacturer and media and how other competitors advertise their similar vehicles …however, if that was the only source-that said SUV that would be questionable-but it is not. It is all of the other sites and many more that I listed.

Since there is no official black and white definition for what an SUV is or is not, again, and by virtually everyone the Mach E is called an SUV. I just cannot see how that one website with an outlier of data is going to be the only authority that somehow tells the IRS that the world journalists, the manufacturer of all other vehicles in this class and the NTHSA that they are wrong…

But in the case of the Mach E, I think there would be some kind of legal action against the IRS and Ford if the IRS chooses some random fuel economy website as the only official source and it somehow just some random person makes an decision that cannot be questioned…

Even though I think it is more of a crossover utility vehicle (CUV)-but that is not an official classification of vehicles. For better or worse…the Mach E is clearly an SUV according to all of the other authorities.

As the ORIGINAL POSTER of this thread I've read every single post, which clearly you have not, nor have you actually looked at the EPA website or the convenient picture I posted a few minutes ago for you, plus way back in the the first few days when this was all originally discussed. This picture is from the EPA website. Here I've conveniently circled, in RED INK the part on the page where it says Station wagon. I too have argued the NHSTA classification (once again in the first few pages or so of the thread) but I that doesn't make what the EPA has classified it as go away.

 

[Larry Paul]

As the ORIGINAL POSTER of this thread I've read every single post, which clearly you have not, nor have you actually looked at the EPA website or the convenient picture I posted a few minutes ago for you, plus way back in the the first few days when this was all originally discussed. This picture is from the EPA website. Here I've conveniently circled, in RED INK the part on the page where it says Station wagon. I too have argued the NHSTA classification (once again in the first few pages or so of the thread) but I that doesn't make what the EPA has classified it as go away.

Respectfully: This is NOT from the EPA website. It is from the official fuel economy website as my post just stated.

if you go to the actual EPA website (EPA.GOV) there is no reference on the official EPA website to the Mach E, or any other car size classification. That is not the role of the EPA. The EPA is about the enviroment…and fuel economy, range and environmental impact…etc.

What I don’t understand is why you promoting that this one website that is very clearly in error is the only authority that you consider to be credible when everything else including the government agency that actually is responsible and is the authority to classify the type of vehicles and the manufacturer states the Mach E is an SUV.

 

[Draconfier]

Respectfully: This is NOT from the EPA website. It is from the official fuel economy website as my post just stated.

if you go to the actual EPA website (EPA.GOV) there is no reference on the official EPA website to the Mach E, or any other car size classification. That is not the role of the EPA. The EPA is about the enviroment…and fuel economy, range and environmental impact…etc.

What I don’t understand is why you promoting that this one website that is very clearly in error is the only authority that you consider to be credible when everything else including the government agency that actually is responsible and is the authority to classify the type of vehicles and the manufacturer states the Mach E is an SUV.

Man look the above site I've posted 2 times recently and previously as well is this link IS from the EPA. https://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy

That is straight from them.

It doesn't matter what Ford classifies it as, its what the Federal Government classifies it as.

Here's the page referencing Van's, Trucks,Suvs,Other. And classification. I copied the text straight out of the below full bill.

‘‘(2) APPLICABLE LIMITATION.—For purposes of paragraph (1), the applicable limitation for each vehicle classification is as follows: ‘‘(A) VANS.—In the case of a van, $80,000. ‘‘(B) SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES.—In the case of a sport utility vehicle, $80,000. ‘‘(C) PICKUP TRUCKS.—In the case of a pickup truck, $80,000. ‘‘(D) OTHER.—In the case of any other vehicle, $55,000. ‘‘(3) REGULATIONS AND GUIDANCE.—For purposes of this subsection, the Secretary shall prescribe such regulations or other guidance as the Secretary determines necessary or appropriate for determining vehicle classifications using criteria similar to that employed by the Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of the Energy to determine size and class of vehicles.’’

 

[Larry Paul]

This is a fuel economy website. Run by the DOE and EPA. The EPA is not responsible to classify vehicle sizes.

The US Government uses the NTHSA.
to classify vehicle sizes.. please look at that link that I have posted several times. That is a .gov website. Why are you ignoring that website?

What in what you have posted states that the fuel economy website is the authority here? please show me the charter that says the EPA or fuel economy website has that final authority?

There Is not one word in that text that says anything about station wagons. Regardless - Wagons are not sedans.

 

[Draconfier]

But if you’re going to take fueleconomy.gov as the driver here rather than the outlier, then you need to consider that sedans are classified separately from station wagons there. As station wagon isn’t mentioned at all in the bill, there’s far greater evidence to lead to a conclusion that it will be lumped in with SUVs versus being lumped in with sedans.

No but there is "OTHER" which unless Ford gets a lawyer to change its classification from Station Wagon to SUV, or has its lobbyists petion to be changed then the limit will be $55,000.

 

[Draconfier]

This is a fuel economy website. Run by the DOE and EPA. The EPA is not responsible to classify vehicle sizes.

The US Government uses the NTHSA.
to classify vehicle sizes.. please look at that link that I have posted several times. That is a .gov website. Why are you ignoring that website?

What in what you have posted states that the fuel economy website is the authority here? please show me the charter that says the EPA or fuel economy website has that final authority?

There Is not one word in that text that says anything about station wagons. Regardless - Wagons are not sedans.

I'm going to post this one more time. Please read it entirely.
(2) APPLICABLE LIMITATION.—For purposes of paragraph (1), the applicable limitation for each vehicle classification is as follows: ‘‘(A) VANS.—In the case of a van, $80,000. ‘‘(B) SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES.—In the case of a sport utility vehicle, $80,000. ‘‘(C) PICKUP TRUCKS.—In the case of a pickup truck, $80,000. ‘‘(D) OTHER.—In the case of any other vehicle, $55,000. ‘‘(3) REGULATIONS AND GUIDANCE.—For purposes of this subsection, the Secretary shall prescribe such regulations or other guidance as the Secretary determines necessary or appropriate for determining vehicle classifications using criteria similar to that employed by the Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of the Energy to determine size and class of vehicles.’’

 

[Larry Paul]

No but there is "OTHER" which unless Ford gets a lawyer to change its classification from Station Wagon to SUV, or has its lobbyists petion to be changed then the limit will be $55,000.

It is already classified as an SUV by the US government (NTHSAj. If there is anything that Ford should do is get the fueleconomy.gov website to fix their error in calling the Mach E as a small wagon (that is 19” longer than a small SUV- the Chevrolet Trax) and be consistent with the NTHSA.

 

[Larry Paul]

I'm going to post this one more time. Please read it entirely.
(2) APPLICABLE LIMITATION.—For purposes of paragraph (1), the applicable limitation for each vehicle classification is as follows: ‘‘(A) VANS.—In the case of a van, $80,000. ‘‘(B) SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES.—In the case of a sport utility vehicle, $80,000. ‘‘(C) PICKUP TRUCKS.—In the case of a pickup truck, $80,000. ‘‘(D) OTHER.—In the case of any other vehicle, $55,000. ‘‘(3) REGULATIONS AND GUIDANCE.—For purposes of this subsection, the Secretary shall prescribe such regulations or other guidance as the Secretary determines necessary or appropriate for determining vehicle classifications using criteria similar to that employed by the Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of the Energy to determine size and class of vehicles.’’

And it is an SUV according to every other website but this one that is not responsible for classification of vehicle types.

Fortunately it is not other… it is an SUV According to the actual government website.

I have still not seen anywhere it states that the authority is fueleconomy.gov. the EPA charter is different than the NTHSA.

I see 4 different groups of US government agencies that classify vehicles- all differently and for different purposes. The NTHSA concluded the Mach E is an SUV. It states it in black and white on their website. I see no reason that is not the authority here. This classification has nothing to do with fuel economy. It has to do with size, weight and form factor.

NHTSA
Unlike the EPA, which groups automobiles by interior volume, the NHTSA groups cars for NCAP testing by weight class.

Vehicle size classes by NHTSA

Class
Passenger cars mini (PC/Mi) (1,500–1,999 lbs.)
Passenger cars light (PC/L) (2,000–2,499 lbs.)
Passenger cars compact (PC/C) (2,500–2,999 lbs.)
Passenger cars medium (PC/Me) (3,000–3,499 lbs.)
Passenger cars heavy (PC/H) (3,500 lbs. and over )
Sport utility vehicles (SUV)
Pickup trucks (PU) Vans (VAN)

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