Taking the Solar Plunge!

[dtbaker61]

That was excellent, and THAT is why (at $0.11 per) at 65 I can't 'go solar'. ....BUT, it means that it costs very little to drive our 2 MMEs, about 3.2 cents per mile.

It is still worth taking a very close look and understanding the difference between 'average' solar that typically has 10-12 year parts-only warranty, and 'premium panels' that have 25 year transferable parts and labor warranty, half the degradation rate mentioned by @Nklem . The key to 'appraisable value' is the Warranty; read it closely. Insist on panels that have a 25 year parts & labor production warranty, and a degradation rate <.6% /year.

regardless how old you are, or how soon you plan to sell your home, if your annual savings / net investment after tax credits yields 7% or better.... why wouldn't you do it?

I'd be willing to bet you have at least $30k in some holding(s) in your Portfolio that are earning you less.... I did. I sold'em, bought Solar, and consider it a solid move, especially when you get the tax credit back and dont have to pay capitol gains on the savings 'dividend' after that!

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[dtbaker61]

I was all excited to take the solar plunge in addition to taking the EV plunge last year. HOA didn’t approve at first but now that they have i found out that the costs went up (inflation and lithium demand and thus price) by 10k from the same company. So not feeling worth doing it.

lithium has nothing to do with grid-tied solar.... no batteries are needed.
I'd look for a different Installer

 

[timbop]

lithium has nothing to do with grid-tied solar.... no batteries are needed.
I'd look for a different Installer

That's partially true, depending upon how reliable your electrical service is. As a safety feature my microinverters won't export power unless they see a sine wave coming in from the grid. That means if the power lines are down the panels shut themselves off - so regardless of how sunny it is I am without power. That was something I didn't realize beforehand, but luckily where I live we almost never lose power for more than a few minutes. Having a battery means the battery will produce the sine wave while isolating from the grid.

 

[TruWrecks]

I'm having 20 kWh batteries installed with a solar system because I'm tired of my power flicker off for minutes to hours at a time. Plus it will it produce my needs 80% of the year.

 

[dtbaker61]

That's partially true, depending upon how reliable your electrical service is. As a safety feature my microinverters won't export power unless they see a sine wave coming in from the grid. That means if the power lines are down the panels shut themselves off - so regardless of how sunny it is I am without power. That was something I didn't realize beforehand, but luckily where I live we almost never lose power for more than a few minutes. Having a battery means the battery will produce the sine wave while isolating from the grid.

yes, grid-tied Solar goes down with the grid.... But no lead or lithium batteries are REQUIRED for basic grid-tied Solar which was what the OP was talking about.

Battery backup can be added after Solar with Ac-coupled systems like Tesla powerwall, Sonnen, LG, Enphase... or DC coupled systems at the time of Solar install by selecting 'hybrid' inverters like SolarEdge or Generac that are capable of supplying their own heartbeat when the grid goes down.... or Generators.

Generators can be gasoline, diesel, natural gas or propane fired..... they can automatically xtransfer and start themselves, or they can be 'manual'.

OOOOOORRRRRRRR, stand alone trickle charged w a single solar panel, and now that we have BEVS..... you can even 'export' energy from your BEV thru the 12v connection points and use it like an Emergency Generator to run basic loads like refrigerator, lights, circulation pumps, etc.

All it takes, for a simple low cost manual backup system utilizing the 68-100kWhr of Energy you have in your BEV is jumper cables and a $300 pure-sine inverter. As long as you don't pull more than 2000watts or so, you can 'run your house' from your MME for about $300.

 

[dtbaker61]

I'm having 20 kWh batteries installed with a solar system because I'm tired of my power flicker off for minutes to hours at a time. Plus it will it produce my needs 80% of the year.

if you have unreliable Grid or rolling brownouts, then Solar PLUS BatteryBackup with automatic transfer is fabulous.... but adds $20k-$40k for the extra electrical service work, transfer switch and BBU.

It's also practical and pays for itself in areas where Utilities have peak/off-peak rates.... you can store energy at off-peak, and self-consume and export surplus during peak rate times.

 

[ZuleMME]

That's partially true, depending upon how reliable your electrical service is. As a safety feature my microinverters won't export power unless they see a sine wave coming in from the grid. That means if the power lines are down the panels shut themselves off - so regardless of how sunny it is I am without power. That was something I didn't realize beforehand, but luckily where I live we almost never lose power for more than a few minutes. Having a battery means the battery will produce the sine wave while isolating from the grid.

Not quite. The microinverters are not connected to the grid/line. They do speak data over power lines with the module that is tied to the grid however. If the grid goes down the microinverters get the frequency of the line pushed out of spec and have to shut down. At which point they "shunt" the power, the solar panels still generate it, it's just not connected. Now the new IQ8 inverters will change this and output power anyway to a critical needs output. Not sure how that will shutdown and where.

 

[timbop]

Not quite. The microinverters are not connected to the grid/line. They do speak data over power lines with the module that is tied to the grid however. If the grid goes down the microinverters get the frequency of the line pushed out of spec and have to shut down. At which point they "shunt" the power, the solar panels still generate it, it's just not connected. Now the new IQ8 inverters will change this and output power anyway to a critical needs output. Not sure how that will shutdown and where.

Good to know the exact details; I should have phrased it as the inverters stop exporting power as you are correct the panels still are getting energized by the sun's photons.

As for @dtbaker61's assertion that $300 worth of gear being all that is necessary to use your Mach-E as a battery I am a bit skeptical. As far as my limited understanding, the line into the breaker panel from the meter needs to be isolated so that the local power lines are not energized from the solar panels, although that may be a case of my misunderstanding as well. Perhaps the "smart meter" does the isolation automatically if there's no sine from the grid side?

I would definitely be interested in having the ability to use my car as the battery backup, although that may also require some software changes on Ford's side as well since the charging port contacts would have to be closed by the car. At least we are living in "interesting times"

 

[dtbaker61]

Good to know the exact details; I should have phrased it as the inverters stop exporting power as you are correct the panels still are getting energized by the sun's photons.

As for @dtbaker61's assertion that $300 worth of gear being all that is necessary to use your Mach-E as a battery I am a bit skeptical.

using the existing 12v 'connection points' under the driver's side beauty cover, jumper cables, and a $300 pure-sine inverter.... you can generate and 'export' up to 2000 watts of AC power from your MME. If the MME is 'on', and auto-timeout setting is OFF, the HV battery will continue to supply 12v DC to the connection points.

As far as my limited understanding, the line into the breaker panel from the meter needs to be isolated so that the local power lines are not energized from the solar panels, although that may be a case of my misunderstanding as well. Perhaps the "smart meter" does the isolation automatically if there's no sine from the grid side?

the fancy, expensive, automatic transfer systems such as Tesla powerwall handle the isolation and transfer automatically.... part of why they cost a lot. A 'portable' or 'emergency' generator can either run things standalone from outlets built into the unit via direct extension cords....

OOOORRRRRRR, you can manually isolate your home from the down grid by turning off your 'main' breaker, and then backfeed power from your little inverter to any outlet. The least expensive inverters output 120vAC, so you also have to turn off all 220v circuits INCLUDING Solar if you have it, because you do not want to 'wake up' the grid-tied PV inverters without somewhere for that energy to go.

I would definitely be interested in having the ability to use my car as the battery backup, although that may also require some software changes on Ford's side as well since the charging port contacts would have to be closed by the car. At least we are living in "interesting times"

you can do this today.... no software changes required.
you access the 12v connection points, and turn MME 'on' to maintain the LVB

 

[timbop]

using the existing 12v 'connection points' under the driver's side beauty cover, jumper cables, and a $300 pure-sine inverter.... you can generate and 'export' up to 2000 watts of AC power from your MME. If the MME is 'on', and auto-timeout setting is OFF, the HV battery will continue to supply 12v DC to the connection points.


the fancy, expensive, automatic transfer systems such as Tesla powerwall handle the isolation and transfer automatically.... part of why they cost a lot. A 'portable' or 'emergency' generator can either run things standalone from outlets built into the unit via direct extension cords....

OOOORRRRRRR, you can manually isolate your home from the down grid by turning off your 'main' breaker, and then backfeed power from your little inverter to any outlet. The least expensive inverters output 120vAC, so you also have to turn off all 220v circuits INCLUDING Solar if you have it, because you do not want to 'wake up' the grid-tied PV inverters without somewhere for that energy to go.


you can do this today.... no software changes required.
you access the 12v connection points, and turn MME 'on' to maintain the LVB

Hmm, better you than me. That's a little bit too many compromises and just a little bit too "rube goldberged". 16A is not very much; I was thinking more along the lines of the HVB battery as the backup @7.2kw or 9.6kw and to allow the panels to do their thing.

In my case they bonded the output from the enphase to the leads coming in from the meter so I'd have to do something about that. Not sure if any of this is worth it.

 

[MustThee?]

lithium has nothing to do with grid-tied solar.... no batteries are needed.
I'd look for a different Installer

Yes but I planned to go all the way with battery backup even though I realize it’s really not required. In general inflation was the point.

 

[MustThee?]

Yes but I planned to go all the way with battery backup even though I realize it’s really not required. In general inflation was the point.

But then as I read earlier this week that companies (other then Tesla) are now making roof panels with solar, i am thinking maybe it’s ok to wait and get both the roof replaced and solar at the same time. Of course the tax credits might be gone by then. Oh well.

 

[timbop]

But then as I read earlier this week that companies (other then Tesla) are now making roof panels with solar, i am thinking maybe it’s ok to wait and get both the roof replaced and solar at the same time. Of course the tax credits might be gone by then. Oh well.

The tax credits expire in 358 days unless congress can vote for an extension. There is virtually zero chance that congress will pass an extension. All that matters in washington right now is to vote against what the other guy wants.
Actually it drops to 22% in 2023, and then expires on 1/1/24. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[MustThee?]

The tax credits expire in 358 days unless congress can vote for an extension. There is virtually zero chance that congress will pass an extension. All that matters in washington right now is to vote against what the other guy wants.

I thought solar tax credits were reducing from 26% (federal) to 22% in 2023.

 

[timbop]

I thought solar tax credits were reducing from 26% (federal) to 22% in 2023.

Damn, you're right - I forgot about that change.

Well, then nevermind... ?

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