Filling a gas-powered vehicle can still be cheaper than charging an electric one

[mkhuffman]

Charging etiquette is also currently borne out of charging realities: a scarce resource (charging stations) that all EV users in a particular area must share. Charging etiquette will change if the availability of that resource changes. And there’s no reason to believe it will remain scarce with burgeoning acceptance of the EV.

What do you think of the ChargePoint stalls at airports? DCA has installed them now, so people plug in and literally fly away from their cars. Obviously, they won’t be unplugging them until they are back.

I agree there will be more chargers available, but I do not believe there will be enough before we run into severe lack of availability. It is the future, of course, and nobody knows for sure. But I don't see any new capacity being built anywhere I go, so if it is going to happen, it needs to start. It won't start until it becomes really bad, IMO. The market is slowing getting flooded with new EVs every day. It will be bad before it gets better.

And I was not referring to airport chargers, where there is an expectation that people will leave their cars while away for days or weeks. I am referring to destination chargers at work, and other places that offer no-cost charging. Anyone who is considerate of others should not be leaving their fully charged car parked in those parking spaces. Ever.

Proper etiquette is to move your car when it no longer needs to be charging, which actually might not even be when it is at 100%. There are people who actually need a charge to make to their next stop, so you should move it when you have enough to get home or to your next stop. That is if you are considerate of others.

If you think you own that space because you own an EV, then that is a problem. I have seen Teslas parked in EV charging spaces and they are not even connected to a charger. They just think that space is theirs because it is painted blue, I guess.

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[mkhuffman]

That's not a great situation. Our chargers (5 dual chargers) are lined up in a way that it is impossible to unplug someone else and physically reach your vehicle. We do deal with full chargers regularly, but I think it is handled pretty well. A) Our facility security polices the chargers and tickets cars who are idling. B) Many of the users know my cell number and ask me to send them a txt when I'm done charging so we can swap out spots. We all like talking about our cars, so we get to know each other pretty quick ?

When you have enough charge to make it home, or you are fully charged, you should not wait for someone to call or text you. What if someone needs a charge and they don't have your phone number? What if someone needs a charge because they are from out of town and you are blocking the charger?

You can open FordPass and see exactly how much charge you have. You don't need someone to tell you to move, you should just move it because you don't know who might actually need that space.

This is a big frustration for me because, as I posted previously, I have seen cars sitting all day in an EV charging space after they are fully charged. I arrived at work and all the spaces were full, yet there were two cars fully charged. Over the course of the morning, another car became fully charged. None of them bothered to move their cars until they left for work in the late afternoon. I was angry because my car really, really needed a charge and they were just sitting there, taking up the space for no good reason. Please don't be like them.

 

[FLmac]

Guys, I am wondering - do you leave your cars parked in those charging spaces even after your car is fully charged? I hope not. But I would like to know how you handle that.

At my work location, there is also free charging but every single day I see cars parked there that are fully charged. I unplugged a Tesla once because his car was fully charged, and when he got back to his car he unplugged me because he was mad that I unplugged him. But he was fully charged and I was not! Are you guys like the Tesla driver?

For sure charger etiquette is going to become a much bigger deal as more and more people depend on destination chargers. I depend on that charger at work because it is 140 miles from my house. I cannot get home without a charge at work or on the road. I bet most people are just using it because it is free. At least that is how it appears when you see a car sitting there all day that is fully charged.

I only charge at work. There’s probably about 200 employees and 4 charging spots. When I decided to order a car there were 2 Teslas. In the last month, we are up to 5 EVs, a hybrid and a guy who sometimes drives his wife’s Tesla for the free charging. That’s 7 cars for 4 spots. One spot doesn’t work with my car for some reason. I don’t need to charge everyday, no one works a standard M-F schedule, and we know each other so it’s worked out so far. I don’t move my car when I’m done charging, but I have moved if someone needs to charge. There’s no way to reach the chargers if you’re not in the spot or next to it. I worry if more people get EVs or hybrids it could be more of an issue, but I also think they will install more chargers. There’s also probably 1000 50 amp plugs on the lot, so if I was desperate I just have to find a spot that doesn’t have an RV in it.

I imagine it’s hard if it’s in a building with multiple offices and people who don’t know each other. Can you exchange info with the other EV drivers to coordinate?

 

[ChargedCheese]

When you have enough charge to make it home, or you are fully charged, you should not wait for someone to call or text you. What if someone needs a charge and they don't have your phone number? What if someone needs a charge because they are from out of town and you are blocking the charger?

You can open FordPass and see exactly how much charge you have. You don't need someone to tell you to move, you should just move it because you don't know who might actually need that space.

This is a big frustration for me because, as I posted previously, I have seen cars sitting all day in an EV charging space after they are fully charged. I arrived at work and all the spaces were full, yet there were two cars fully charged. Over the course of the morning, another car became fully charged. None of them bothered to move their cars until they left for work in the late afternoon. I was angry because my car really, really needed a charge and they were just sitting there, taking up the space for no good reason. Please don't be like them.

Yes, I can see it is a huge frustration for you - I think you jumped to a conclusion on my charging habbits that just isn't true. I never idle (sit in a spot with a full charge). I charge twice a week. I was referring more to the case of NOT being fully charged but still helping out my coworker.

Fun fact: I know how my app works
Not ideal, but also an option: Our chargers are less than a mile from an EA station.

 

[MotownMachdoc]

goes
[/QUOTE

Since the news reported it must be true.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/filling-gas-vehicle-cheaper-electric

Anyone want to buy my First Edition RR MME?

I just can't stand charging anymore, such a waste of my time and money.

You can't make this stuff up, but they hide the small print which maybe lets them print this stuff.

"Fast Charging Stations High Rates"

PS - Nice picture of a MME as the example in the article.

Read the article. My take away is there are various reasons to go EV. The Escape is a nice vehicle but not equipped as a Mach E. Charge station charging is not a money saver but charging at home is. You have to have home charging to have an advantage. It needs a different mind set to fuel an EV. EV performance is thrilling to drive and is not part of this report. Fueling EV pricing is more stable than gas because the commodity of oil is less stable. The electric infrastructure needs to be built out to lower DC charging costs and make long distance driving as easy as ice vehicles. iCE vehicles beat out horse travel as an individual mode of transportation because of speed of travel, ease of fueling and the interstate highway system was built out.

 

[FLmac]

I view it as an employment benefit (much like health insurance, 401k, etc). Just like a 401k, you are welcome to not use it, but I would call that a financially unwise decision. That being said, I think it is very reasonable to expect the free aspect of the chargers to go away at some point. Then the question becomes, "Which is cheaper, the company charger rate or the electric company night rate (currently $0.07)." In any case, I'm already wired with a 14-50 outlet. A change in my company benefit package would just result in my buying a charger at home - no big deal really.

That's not a great situation. Our chargers (5 dual chargers) are lined up in a way that it is impossible to unplug someone else and physically reach your vehicle. We do deal with full chargers regularly, but I think it is handled pretty well. A) Our facility security polices the chargers and tickets cars who are idling. B) Many of the users know my cell number and ask me to send them a txt when I'm done charging so we can swap out spots. We all like talking about our cars, so we get to know each other pretty quick ?

I have a plug at home, but I charge at work. In my situation I don’t see the chargers going away or not being free. It’s in the employee parking section of the lot (which no one would want to park in because it’s a 5 min walk to the front of the building) and it’s a basic 50 amp plug. We have probably over 1000 RVs plugged in all over the lot and it’s just part of the cost of business. No one is looking at the small drop of electricity that 4 EVs are using a day.

Everyone who charges has contact info for everyone else. I don’t charge everyday and I’ve moved once when someone needed the charger. We also try to coordinate charging days/schedules because either people are off or don’t need to charge everyday. One guy moves his car when he’s done because he likes to park closer to his office and he gets away with parking in areas that I don’t. I guess it all depends on the work situation or parking situation, but we’ve made it work so far without any issues.

 

[EVS]

I have SDG&E. They have several different pricing plans to choose from for EVs.

Hmm. I've heard complaints about SDG&E rates in the past. So I checked out their EV plans today, how they compare to PG&E's and why so cheap. You're right; their EV-TOU-5 super off-peak rate from 12 a.m. - 6a.m. is 11 c/kWh. But to get that, you are paying even higher rate of 66c/KWh for the peak period of 4-9 p.m. and also a fee of $16/mo. This is even higher than the highest rate I saw in PG&E's EV2-A.

I suppose, if you drive a lot & charge a lot at night, you can afford to pay more for the peak period, or use battery etc. to reduce peak rate usage.

https://www.sdge.com/residential/pricing-plans/about-our-pricing-plans/electric-vehicle-plans#DR1

I also see tnat SDG&E has EV-TOU-2 where summer peak rate (4-9 p.m.) is 68c, off-peak is 42c and super off-peak is 24c. 68c/kWh is the highest rate I've seen in the continental US to date.

I guess even with these high electricity rates, switching from performance gas cars to EVs, like Mustang to Mustang Mach-E, will save on fuel cost. But coming from Prius etc., savings may be minimal. It remains to be seen what happens in the future, when these off-peak and super off-peak rates disappear as more EVs start charging in those times.

 

[dml105]

I agree there will be more chargers available, but I do not believe there will be enough before we run into severe lack of availability. It is the future, of course, and nobody knows for sure. But I don't see any new capacity being built anywhere I go, so if it is going to happen, it needs to start. It won't start until it becomes really bad, IMO. The market is slowing getting flooded with new EVs every day. It will be bad before it gets better.

Always bet on the market. If there is a market, there will be a supplier to take advantage of that market. That's capitalism, baby!

Note that nobody ever worries that there won't be enough gas stations to supply all the cars in that new development out in Loudoun, or wherever. Or enough schools. Or enough running water. Or enough whatever. For some reason, it's just EVs and charging stations that make people worried.

And I was not referring to airport chargers, where there is an expectation that people will leave their cars while away for days or weeks. I am referring to destination chargers at work, and other places that offer no-cost charging.

Not trying to make this personal, but that's supremely arbitrary. Both airports and offices are places where people are expected to leave their cars for long periods of time -- typically longer than it would take to charge up a car. The only difference between the two is that at the airport, the person physically cannot move their car because they're somewhere else.

Proper etiquette is to move your car when it no longer needs to be charging, which actually might not even be when it is at 100%. There are people who actually need a charge to make to their next stop, so you should move it when you have enough to get home or to your next stop.

Then I would think that proper etiquette would be to not use the at-work charging station AT ALL unless you need it to get home, or to get back to full if you don't have a home charger.

(To be sure, we have a charger at my office that I have not used once. I don't need it, and someone else might. But I have a hard time with bright line rules when the consensus is not there yet. )

 

[mkhuffman]

Yes, I can see it is a huge frustration for you - I think you jumped to a conclusion on my charging habbits that just isn't true. I never idle (sit in a spot with a full charge). I charge twice a week. I was referring more to the case of NOT being fully charged but still helping out my coworker.

Fun fact: I know how my app works
Not ideal, but also an option: Our chargers are less than a mile from an EA station.

Sorry I did that. It is very frustrating, and your situation is definitely different because you have people monitoring the spaces and ticketing offenders. And you don't seem to have that entitlement mindset that some people have. So I apologize for my assumptions.

In my work location there is no enforcement of proper behavior, and when left up to people to decide for themselves, many are deciding they own those spaces because they got there first. I am going to contact the parking garage operator and see if they can implement some sort of enforcement, but that should not be necessary. People should be considerate of others without someone telling them to be considerate.

For clarity, the garage is under an office building housing many different businesses. I have no idea who the inconsiderate EV owners are, or how to contact them. So I leave notes on their windshields. ?

 

[mkhuffman]

Always bet on the market. If there is a market, there will be a supplier to take advantage of that market. That's capitalism, baby!

Note that nobody ever worries that there won't be enough gas stations to supply all the cars in that new development out in Loudoun, or wherever. Or enough schools. Or enough running water. Or enough whatever. For some reason, it's just EVs and charging stations that make people worried.

I 100% believe in capitalism and the FREE market. However, this market has been distorted and it is debatable whether or not it is truly free when government is providing incentives and penalties to influence private behavior.

Regardless, if the market happened to be free, I agree it would sort itself out. In the meantime, we are getting flooded with EVs partly due to government incentives and we will run out of sufficient public charging spaces (because of government regulations that make it really hard to add capacity). I am sure of it. Will it eventually be corrected? I think so. As long as government gets out of the way, that is.

Not trying to make this personal, but that's supremely arbitrary. Both airports and offices are places where people are expected to leave their cars for long periods of time -- typically longer than it would take to charge up a car. The only difference between the two is that at the airport, the person physically cannot move their car because they're somewhere else.

I don't think it is arbitrary at all. People working in offices can move their cars. People traveling from Dulles to Dallas cannot. People who park in spaces just because they got there first, and feel like they have a right to sit there even though they are not using the space for its intended use, are jerks. I could use stronger language, but children might be reading.

In the end, I guess it will only change when there are penalties for being inconsiderate and hogging the charging space. The only enforcement for many destination chargers are for the owners to ticket or tow the offenders. It would be nice if all "free" chargers required a credit card to initiate the charge, and then started billing the card once the charging stopped. That would be very cool. But most destination chargers do not have a billing mechanism. At least those I have seen anyway.

Then I would think that proper etiquette would be to not use the at-work charging station AT ALL unless you need it to get home, or to get back to full if you don't have a home charger.

Yes, I agree with this. If you don't need the charge, don't park in the space. That is the basic rule. However, we cannot judge that easily. We can judge a fully charged car easily though. I can see the charger is no longer supplying a charge - it is black and white. I cannot determine if a 50% charge is sufficient to get that car home. So it makes sense to use the charging state as the guide: if you are fully charged, move your f-ing car to another space so someone else can get a charge. Simple. Otherwise, I put a nasty note on your car.

 

[RyZt]

I've heard complaints about SDG&E rates in the past. So I checked out their EV plans today, how they compare to PG&E's and why so cheap.

Since you're diving deep into electricity rates in California. I just want to share another data point.

The city of Palo Alto prides itself with EV. "In Palo Alto, one in every six households has an electric vehicle (EV) with adoption rates increasing daily!" At first, I thought they're just the richest city, so of course EV adoption is high. And then a friend showed me the Palo Alto utility rate.

It's $0.13757 + 5% in tier 1, and $0.19367 + 5% in tier 2. Tier 1 is first 330 kWh of electricity (assuming 30-day month). No Time-of-Use is involved. I don't know how City of Palo Alto could charge so much less than PG&E and SDG&E. Their flat rate in tier 2 is cheaper than PG&E's super off-peak.

 

[Lynsey]

Hmm. I've heard complaints about SDG&E rates in the past. So I checked out their EV plans today, how they compare to PG&E's and why so cheap. You're right; their EV-TOU-5 super off-peak rate from 12 a.m. - 6a.m. is 11 c/kWh. But to get that, you are paying even higher rate of 66c/KWh for the peak period of 4-9 p.m. and also a fee of $16/mo. This is even higher than the highest rate I saw in PG&E's EV2-A.

I suppose, if you drive a lot & charge a lot at night, you can afford to pay more for the peak period, or use battery etc. to reduce peak rate usage.

https://www.sdge.com/residential/pricing-plans/about-our-pricing-plans/electric-vehicle-plans#DR1

I also see tnat SDG&E has EV-TOU-2 where summer peak rate (4-9 p.m.) is 68c, off-peak is 42c and super off-peak is 24c. 68c/kWh is the highest rate I've seen in the continental US to date.

I guess even with these high electricity rates, switching from performance gas cars to EVs, like Mustang to Mustang Mach-E, will save on fuel cost. But coming from Prius etc., savings may be minimal. It remains to be seen what happens in the future, when these off-peak and super off-peak rates disappear as more EVs start charging in those times.

I switched recently to the EV-TOU-2 plan, but I only charge at super off peak hours, and I only drive around 10-15 miles a day, and use the aux power on my breaks. My car only charges about an hour or so about 3-4 times a week to keep it at 90%. With my driving really gas or electric wouldn't break the bank. In San Diego, we have the highest electric prices in the country....yes, country. It's f*cked, but we also have some of the highest gas prices, so really doesn't matter either way. https://obrag.org/2022/02/federal-a...-paying-highest-electricity-rates-in-country/

 

[Peaceowl]

They need meters at the chargers that allows an hour of charging, and then a ticket if you don’t move your car. Like a parking meter is. fair enough. Humans are just having a hard time being polite and respectful these days.

 

[mkhuffman]

They need meters at the chargers that allows an hour of charging, and then a ticket if you don’t move your car. Like a parking meter is. fair enough. Humans are just having a hard time being polite and respectful these days.

People have always had a problem being polite and respectful. And normally I avoid those people, but if we are sharing chargers, I am forced to interact with them.

This problem isn't going to get any better anytime soon. That is the issue. We are going to run out of capacity and then have people getting into fistfights over stupid things like hogging charging spaces. I won't, but I can see it happening. Normal people won't want to deal with this at all and they will realize they made a mistake buying that EV when it happens to them.

 

[TGIF]

My daughter drives a PHEV but lives in a country with very expensive gas so she tries to keep her car charged. She has a note that she puts in the window of her car acknowledging that and telling people if they have an EV and need the charge that they can unplug her. She also includes her phone number in case they want to call her. Seems like a courteous way to approach the issue.

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