Filling a gas-powered vehicle can still be cheaper than charging an electric one

[AKgrampy]

News Flash! No car gets the rated MPG in cold weather! Heating is just cheaper on a gas or diesel because heat is a waste product of powering the engine.

Not going to say you are wrong in general but my Expedition gets 21/22 MPG highway in Alaska during the winter and the summer. If I used air con I imagine I would get poorer mileage during the summer!

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[mkhuffman]

That Tesla driver hogging a charging spot is simply wrong. It’s not acceptable behavior. Unplugging your car is even worse.

That being said, there are more to this story than you may have realized. You may have damaged his car by unplugging the charge cable. Up until a certain OTA software update, the Tesla would try to close its charging door (but can’t because the adapter is still in there) and keep retrying until it breaks. You can find videos online. Below a Reddit discussion on this particular suicidal behavior of Tesla cars.

It’s not your fault if that Tesla car was damaged as a result of your action. I’d say Tesla is 90% responsible for bad design and the Tesla owner is 10% responsible for having their car parked in a charging spot while full. I just want to shed some light on why the Tesla owner might have been angry.

I was not aware that Tesla defect, but I still put 100% of the blame on the owner of the Tesla. He was fully charged before 9:00 AM. Seriously. He had no reason to park there. He just felt entitled to the space because he has a EV. Maybe I should have removed his adapter and put it on the hood of his car. ?

 

[mkhuffman]

You touched his stuff. People don’t like it when you touch their stuff.

It works better when the charger companies charge you money for sitting there after fully charged.

It is a problem that charging places are also parking spots. Sometimes people need both a parking spot and a charge, and they aren’t able to come back and move their car for whatever reason.

Other than charging them $$ to disincentivize this behavior, not sure what else the fix would be.

Even in the COVID era that floor of the garage is pretty full, so I get your point. I moved my car when it reached sufficient charge and I had to drive a long way away from the elevator to find a parking spot. A long way. I could have gone down a level, which was probably a lot more empty. But it is true there are limited spaces.

That said, if you think you cannot move your car when it will be fully charged, move it before or don't park there at all. Our apps will tell us when the car will reach 100%, so you will know when you need to move it long before you actually have to. Simple. That is the considerate way to behave. Instead of what I see from too many people.

 

[Vulnox]

News Flash! No car gets the rated MPG in cold weather! Heating is just cheaper on a gas or diesel because heat is a waste product of powering the engine.

Correct, cold weather impacts ICE vehicles as well. We travel to Indianapolis from metro Detroit several times a year to visit family/friends. It is a trip I have made soooo many times. In our PB F-150, two trips in the summer, we averaged 24.3 MPG full the full round trip with four people in the truck and the bed basically full of luggage and stuff.

About a month ago I went alone for a weekend visit with friends, so it was just me in the truck and my backpack, and I averaged 21 MPG. Exact same route, speeds, number of stops, no traffic, etc. Cold weather changes engine dynamics and hurts fuel mileage. It's been that way with every vehicle I have owned.

As for the article, yes if you ONLY charge on the road or don't have charging at home, your costs change pretty significantly. But newsflash, buying an ICE vehicle that only takes premium also increases your cost of ownership. Your particular situation should be considered before you buy any vehicle. We are a family of four, and it would be wild if I bought a Mustang as our only vehicle for long distance trips and then wrote an article saying "An Explorer can be more comfortable for a large family than a Mustang!", like, no kidding. You bought the wrong vehicle for your situation and use case.

We do need to improve the charge install situation at apartments though before I believe laws that will restrict buying ICE vehicles take effect. It would definitely be a negative if people had to pay current fast charger rates because they live in an apartment.

 

[mkhuffman]

I am simply saying that pointing to some moments in time captures of long lines at EV stations is only relevant if you acknowledge that it happens at gas pumps too. There are waaaaay more gas stations, and there needs to be more EV stations.

This is true; however, the number of EVs on the road is about to double, triple, possibly quadruple in the next 12 months. There is no way the number of available DCFC stations in Virginia is going to be able to provide sufficient capacity on a normal day, let alone during a hurricane evacuation. Huge, huge problem for EV owners, and I don't see any work happening that will correct it.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

Sorry, but no comparison of the lines at gas stations to the ones at DC chargers.

Even the worst line I’ve ever waited in (in Florida before an incoming hurricane) only took a few extra minutes.

Those holiday DC charger lines were hours of waiting.

And unlike gas stations, there isn’t another option right up the street.

I was near the border between CA and AZ a few days ago. There was a half mile line of stopped vehicles on the freeway going from CA to the closest gas station in AZ.

Every time gas prices increase, people in CA border towns drive their trucks 20 miles into AZ to fill up. Maybe not hours of waiting, but still ridiculous...

 

[TruWrecks]

This is true; however, the number of EVs on the road is about to double, triple, possibly quadruple in the next 12 months. There is no way the number of available DCFC stations in Virginia is going to be able to provide sufficient capacity on a normal day, let alone during a hurricane evacuation. Huge, huge problem for EV owners, and I don't see any work happening that will correct it.

DCFC is intended for traveling long distance in one trip, or edge cases. It is not a daily charging method. This is an invalid argument unless this is a fantasy world where DCFC has no impact on battery life.

ICE drivers think this way. They think they only need to fill the tank when it is near empty.

With an EV it is healthier to L2 charge for daily errands and save DCFC for trips.

 

[JoeDimwit]

If you’re looking to get somewhere the fastest for the least money…….. they are.

But we were comparing cars to cars. Throwing motorcycles, planes, trains or walking is illogical.

No more illogical than comparing ICE vehicles to EV”s.

 

[mkhuffman]

DCFC is intended for traveling long distance in one trip, or edge cases. It is not a daily charging method. This is an invalid argument unless this is a fantasy world where DCFC has no impact on battery life.

ICE drivers think this way. They think they only need to fill the tank when it is near empty.

With an EV it is healthier to L2 charge for daily errands and save DCFC for trips.

I agree but doesn't change the fact that there is a looming capacity problem. A big one.

 

[rcpd34]

Click bait article.

 

[AKgrampy]

I was near the border between CA and AZ a few days ago. There was a half mile line of stopped vehicles on the freeway going from CA to the closest gas station in AZ.

Every time gas prices increase, people in CA border towns drive their trucks 20 miles into AZ to fill up. Maybe not hours of waiting, but still ridiculous...

That is crazy! I find the older I get the more valuable my time is (or maybe I am just less patient.) I would never wait around like that just to save a few dollars especially when it cost about $9 RT to get the savings. I do think there will be an issue some places in the Lower 48 with charging over the next couple years. I understand the vast majority of owners, or so it seems, are also homeowners that can charge at home. With the push to mosh to EVs, for many good reasons, you will likely see an increase in apartment dwellers with no access to home charging. That will certainly creat quite an impact. Of course as they say necessity is the mother of invention so I am sure there will be a corresponding build out over time. I just see the build out lagging the need unless the government pays the capital investment.

 

[Mach1E]

I said in my message that you quoted that there is a significant difference. And if you are just going to pull articles of long lines from the past three years, we can use this one:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nichol...s-after-pipeline-hack-photos/?sh=3381c9484e48

Those lines were all over in the South East US. That it happens at EV chargers doesn't make it the "norm" any more than the gas lines from the pipeline hack are the norm.

The EV lines are probably more of an issue in certain parts of the country than others. I am also NOT saying the EV infrastructure for charging is perfect, far from it. I think we need massive expansion and I work at Ford and during our town halls I keep pressing on our EV leaders as to why they keep saying Ford has the largest manufacturer charging network while ignoring how many of those are 50kW fast chargers or in some cases just L2 chargers.

I am simply saying that pointing to some moments in time captures of long lines at EV stations is only relevant if you acknowledge that it happens at gas pumps too. There are waaaaay more gas stations, and there needs to be more EV stations. But while I don't charge on the road much (yet) since our main road trip vehicle is the F-150, I still drive by main EV installations all the time, mainly Superchargers, and they usually just have 1-2 stalls taken up.

I personally worry less about number of installs than I do number of quality installs. Having 10 50kW chargers is going to create more line issues than have 10 150kW stations, and we need to work on education so people aren't waiting at the station until they hit 100%.

We agree on the solution.

We also agree that one problem is larger than the other.

So I’m not quite sure why our posts back and forth sound like we are disagreeing.

I was just pointing out the problem and hoping that the rate of adoption doesn’t outpace the rate of infrastructure expansion. Because right now it seems like it may.

 

[Mach1E]

Even in the COVID era that floor of the garage is pretty full, so I get your point. I moved my car when it reached sufficient charge and I had to drive a long way away from the elevator to find a parking spot. A long way. I could have gone down a level, which was probably a lot more empty. But it is true there are limited spaces.

That said, if you think you cannot move your car when it will be fully charged, move it before or don't park there at all. Our apps will tell us when the car will reach 100%, so you will know when you need to move it long before you actually have to. Simple. That is the considerate way to behave. Instead of what I see from too many people.

Not charging at all may not be an option. Same goes with being able to move it.

Everyone’s situation is different.

Reminds me of a sitcom setup that’s been done a few times. Someone gets pissed that someone parks in a handicapped spot and trashes the car.

Then they see someone with no legs or something roll up to the recently trashed car.

Or someone driving like a maniac, cutting people off……… while rushing someone to the hospital.

You just don’t know people’s situation until you ask. Can’t always assume THEY are being the a-hole (even though a lot of times they are, especially in a Tesla!) ?

 

[mkhuffman]

Not charging at all may not be an option. Same goes with being able to move it.

Everyone’s situation is different.

Reminds me of a sitcom setup that’s been done a few times. Someone gets pissed that someone parks in a handicapped spot and trashes the car.

Then they see someone with no legs or something roll up to the recently trashed car.

Or someone driving like a maniac, cutting people off……… while rushing someone to the hospital.

You just don’t know people’s situation until you ask. Can’t always assume THEY are being the a-hole (even though a lot of times they are, especially in a Tesla!) ?

If your car is 100% charged, it should not be parked in a charging space. If it is close to being 100% charged, you should not park it there. What I have seen is cars that are parked and fully charged early in the morning, and they sit there all day. Sorry, but those people should have parked in a regular space and charged at home. I am not going to trash their car, but I will pee in their charging port. Just kidding. It might electrocute me.

 

[EVS]

Ok. Solution #2. Four parking spots per charger. Four charging cables per charger. Park and plug in your one of four cable. Your cable goes “active” when currently charging car completes charging.

I assume you are just joking, since the electrical circuitry that can switch such high amperage current to different cables, the power electronics, and four parking spaces are a lot of extra costs and complications. Just a single parking space is already a premium cost item to allocate to one car for 30-60 mins to get a full charge.

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