Dealer sold my reserved car

[RickMachE]

If people are willing to pay more for something by definition the price is too low.

Or the people willing to pay more are ill informed or not smart.

Sure, if a significant percentage of the general population is willing to pay more for an item, then the price could be higher. Price elasticity of demand tells us this.

But there are buyers of items of all types that simply hand over their money without even knowing the price. "I have to have it". People pull into a Shell station near us that is the highest in the area. Some want Shell gas. Most don't think about gas prices.

If a grocery item goes from $3.99 to $4.49, some people think "that's just 50 cents, so what". Others think "that's a 12.5% price increase, that's ridiculous".

When I buy a vehicle, I check every single line item. If I can't understand it or think it's wrong, dealer has to explain it for me. I don't care if it's $10.

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[mkhuffman]

Or the people willing to pay more are ill informed or not smart.

Sure, if a significant percentage of the general population is willing to pay more for an item, then the price could be higher. Price elasticity of demand tells us this.

But there are buyers of items of all types that simply hand over their money without even knowing the price. "I have to have it". People pull into a Shell station near us that is the highest in the area. Some want Shell gas. Most don't think about gas prices.

If a grocery item goes from $3.99 to $4.49, some people think "that's just 50 cents, so what". Others think "that's a 12.5% price increase, that's ridiculous".

When I buy a vehicle, I check every single line item. If I can't understand it or think it's wrong, dealer has to explain it for me. I don't care if it's $10.

I think rather than lack of being smart, it is probably laziness. People don't pay attention because it takes effort. You put a lot of effort into understanding every line item, every dollar amount. Personally I would probably let the $10 line item go, unless there were a lot of them. That is me being lazy, I fully admit, but it isn't work my effort when I just want to move on to something else.

Maybe the people buying expensive gas think that station is more convenient than driving another mile, or maybe they are stupid, or maybe they are just lazy. Regardless, they are willing to pay it so the Shell continues to charge it. If people didn't want to pay it, the Shell would have to lower their prices.

The right price is the price the seller is willing to sell it for, and the price the buyer is willing to pay. If I sell my house for $100k less than the identical house next door, did I sell it for the right price? I did if I needed to get the sale done quickly and for cash today, rather than wait for a month for someone with appraisals and other loan delays? Or maybe I should have raised my price, added more "ADM". That is my decision, and the buyer's choice to pay it or not.

If Mercedes dealers add $50k on top of their cars, and people are willing to pay it, then it is the right price. If the cars sit there unsold, the dealer will lower their ADM until someone buys the cars. The point is there is no reason why a Mercedes that costs $120k can't be priced too low if they are selling out of them at $120k and the buyers are willing to pay more.

 

[Mach1E]

I think rather than lack of being smart, it is probably laziness. People don't pay attention because it takes effort. You put a lot of effort into understanding every line item, every dollar amount. Personally I would probably let the $10 line item go, unless there were a lot of them. That is me being lazy, I fully admit, but it isn't work my effort when I just want to move on to something else.

Maybe the people buying expensive gas think that station is more convenient than driving another mile, or maybe they are stupid, or maybe they are just lazy. Regardless, they are willing to pay it so the Shell continues to charge it. If people didn't want to pay it, the Shell would have to lower their prices.

The right price is the price the seller is willing to sell it for, and the price the buyer is willing to pay. If I sell my house for $100k less than the identical house next door, did I sell it for the right price? I did if I needed to get the sale done quickly and for cash today, rather than wait for a month for someone with appraisals and other loan delays? Or maybe I should have raised my price, added more "ADM". That is my decision, and the buyer's choice to pay it or not.

If Mercedes dealers add $50k on top of their cars, and people are willing to pay it, then it is the right price. If the cars sit there unsold, the dealer will lower their ADM until someone buys the cars. The point is there is no reason why a Mercedes that costs $120k can't be priced too low if they are selling out of them at $120k and the buyers are willing to pay more.

The hard part is that there’s a lot of opposing philosophy going on right now with these pricing discussions.

People want to feel like they “got a deal” or at least paid a “fair price.”

The problem with that? It’s all relative.

What’s the difference between the following things?

1. Manufacturer lowers or eliminates a rebate
2. Manufacturer raises MSRP
3. Dealer negotiated a higher price
4. Dealer adds ADM
5. Manufacturer raises finance rate
6. Dealer offers less for trade in

Answer? There is no difference! Every one equals a higher price. Yet people freak out or have some philosophical argument why certain ones (like 2 and 4) are unfair or wrong or whatever…..

Ironically? With 7% inflation and HUGE increases on trade ins and still low financing rates, I would also argue that buying a new car anywhere near MSRP is cheaper than it should be right now.

 

[krafty81]

This is the way, but not every dealership will do this. My dealership refused to do so, saying they needed a VIN to work off of. I assumed it was something malicious, because once you have the VIN it means the vehicle is scheduled for production, which means the order can't be canceled. If the order can't be canceled, I have no bargaining power: the dealership will either get the vehicle and sell it to me, or I'll walk away and the dealership will sell it to someone else for a few thousand more than they quoted me. (You can feel where their incentives are, right?) But later I realized that their system is so disorganized - or maybe it's Ford's - that they could not find my order based on the online "order number" (which Ford should really call a reservation number). It's clearly linked in the system because I get online updates, but it seems no human - neither the dealership nor Ford's support people - can see that link.

I now have a VIN from Ford (which still hasn't been transmitted to the dealer) and will go through the pricing with the dealer, and have a few months before the car arrives to sort through any issues. But I recognize I have next to no bargaining power in this. As Rick said, this all really should have been done at the time that the order was placed with the dealer. I do think lack of up-front pricing is intentional for many dealerships, though.



I think Ford is playing a very dangerous game with their online order system. All of the terminology and setup is familiar to anyone who has done any online shopping. Prices are listed, you're given an order number, the order tracking page always talks about "your new Mach-E" (emphasis mine). Fine print aside, there is nothing to indicate that what you've really done was to push an order request to a dealership, who then places the order and really owns the vehicle until you sign paperwork with them. We're not ordering anything, we're making a reservation. The pricing on the website should make it very clear that it's merely suggested and that the actual price is completely up to the dealer.

I am shocked that a lawsuit has not been filed over this yet, and I think it's just a matter of time. The courts would not be sympathetic to hearing that a dealership was simply misleading, I'd imagine. Someone needs to be able to show real harm that came from this; maybe a lease was timed to end around delivery and now they had to scramble on a vehicle, costing them time, money, and maybe even their job. That person also needs to have the resources and desire to move forward with a lawyer. Based on the stories posted here, it seems when most people get a lawyer involved the dealerships move very quickly to right the wrongs (which have been minor compared to the events this thread is based on). Eventually we'll get that perfect mix, though, and hopefully it'll set a precedent.

You can cancel the car anytime. It can show up, you test drive it and don't like it and walk away. You will get your 500 back. That's how it is supposed to work.

 

[jlauro]

You can cancel the car anytime. It can show up, you test drive it and don't like it and walk away. You will get your 500 back. That's how it is supposed to work.

It's up to the dealer (and sometimes state laws) if you can get the deposit back. For a high demand vehicle like the Mach E, probably not a problem with most dealers but not all custom order vehicles are popular and so you can't assume you will get your deposit back from the dealer...

 

[Mach1E]

It's up to the dealer (and sometimes state laws) if you can get the deposit back. For a high demand vehicle like the Mach E, probably not a problem with most dealers but not all custom order vehicles are popular and so you can't assume you will get your deposit back from the dealer...

Yup. My dealer didn’t even require a deposit and took X plan. Said if it shows up and I don’t like it, they’ll just sell to someone else.

 

[moparguy]

I think rather than lack of being smart, it is probably laziness. People don't pay attention because it takes effort. You put a lot of effort into understanding every line item, every dollar amount. Personally I would probably let the $10 line item go, unless there were a lot of them. That is me being lazy, I fully admit, but it isn't work my effort when I just want to move on to something else.

Maybe the people buying expensive gas think that station is more convenient than driving another mile, or maybe they are stupid, or maybe they are just lazy. Regardless, they are willing to pay it so the Shell continues to charge it. If people didn't want to pay it, the Shell would have to lower their prices.

The right price is the price the seller is willing to sell it for, and the price the buyer is willing to pay. If I sell my house for $100k less than the identical house next door, did I sell it for the right price? I did if I needed to get the sale done quickly and for cash today, rather than wait for a month for someone with appraisals and other loan delays? Or maybe I should have raised my price, added more "ADM". That is my decision, and the buyer's choice to pay it or not.

If Mercedes dealers add $50k on top of their cars, and people are willing to pay it, then it is the right price. If the cars sit there unsold, the dealer will lower their ADM until someone buys the cars. The point is there is no reason why a Mercedes that costs $120k can't be priced too low if they are selling out of them at $120k and the buyers are willing to pay more.

There is a lot of common sense in this post, I keep saying the same thing over and over, you nailed it though, people use emotion these days vs common sense.

I like the Shell example, two gas stations by my house, Shell & another independent station, Shell sell 87 at $5.89 per gallon, independent sell at $5.35 per gallon, distance between the two is half mile, both on the same street, the difference is a whopping $0.54! people still choose to go to Shell, the Chevron 0.3 miles away, sell 87 at $6.09!!! it's jam packed.

Same thing with cars, I sold my Bronco recently to Carmax, they resold it again! buyer paid Carmax $15k above what they paid me, and that person paid in total $24k above msrp for my car!!!! I honestly don't blame Carmax! they are a business, I blame that person 100%, same with Carvana, they had Broncos equipped exactly the same as my car, all were sold at $27k-$30k above msrp in less than two days after posting!

Also with cars, people wants to sell their current cars at today prices but want to buy new cars at 2019 prices! it's a fucked up logic, dealer won't pay you $4k over msrp for your 2018 Tacoma with 40K miles if they are not selling you the new one without ADM!
If you want 2019 prices, trade in your car at 2019 values! I don't think any dealer would object to that.

 

[mkhuffman]

people still choose to go to Shell, the Chevron 0.3 miles away, sell 87 at $6.09!!! it's jam packed.

$6.09???? Holy crap. That is out of control. I would not only refuse to use that station, I think I would move out of CA to a state that has cheaper gas. ?

 

[MisterSofa]

The sharing of consumer experience is what yelp is for

Yelp is the worst. The OP should review on Google. No one believes the Yelp reviews.

 

[Seriously]

Sharing my experience about a local shady dealership (Putnam Ford of San Mateo, CA).

I ordered a Mustang Mach-E online on 8/17/21, placed a $500 deposit, and assigned the car to a local dealership. I was told on 4/26/22 afternoon that the car had arrived. The salesperson and manager told me it would be fine to pick it up on 4/29 afternoon. They said they would NOT honor Ford's price protection policy, despite telling me months earlier that they would try to, so I would need to pay $2000 more than the initial order price from 2021. I asked if I could sign paperwork on 4/29 and take receipt of the car, and the salesperson and manager said that would be fine. Instead, I was sent a contract via email on 4/27 which did not include my initial deposit. They did not provide a corrected contract when asked. I did not sign this. I spoke with the owner on the morning of 4/29 who threatened to cancel my order, but also said he would have his staff look into the situation and reach out to me. When I did not hear back I started calling the dealership to let them know I was coming over, but nobody would pick up the phone. I was finally able to reach someone in the afternoon, when I was told that nobody could handle the paperwork that day, and also the car was no longer on the lot. I was told on 4/30 they had actually sold the car to someone else on 4/29 in the morning.

I know these cars are in high demand but this feels totally crazy to me. They wanted to charge me more than the expected price. They threatened to sell the car if I didn't pick it up ASAP, and ended up selling it before 72 hours had elapsed, without my consent or knowledge. They also ghosted me so that they could sell the car to someone else. The deposit and reservation and order seem totally worthless.

The owner doesn't seem to think he did anything wrong, and he is currently offering to sell me a future vehicle with usual dealer markup (LOL)

I left some bad reviews online, and I opened a complaint with Ford corporate but they said they could take up to 30 days to get a response from the dealer.

I am so sorry to hear this. Unfortunately I almost had the exact same scenario. I was told I could pick up in a few days. The next day they refused to give me the Buyer's Order so I could get a bank check for the amount, insisting I use their financing and pay a $10K ADM. The manager got involved and was absolutely unprofessional and bullying. They also refused to give me back my keys for my trade-in, that they had to appraise it, while I waited for the paperwork. I called Ford corporate. I filed complaints. I called back the dealership and got the owner involved. In the end, I have my Mach-E finally, the one I ordered, for the price I ordered it, but not without a terrible experience.

 

[car_driver_guy]

I am so sorry to hear this. Unfortunately I almost had the exact same scenario. I was told I could pick up in a few days. The next day they refused to give me the Buyer's Order so I could get a bank check for the amount, insisting I use their financing and pay a $10K ADM. The manager got involved and was absolutely unprofessional and bullying. They also refused to give me back my keys for my trade-in, that they had to appraise it, while I waited for the paperwork. I called Ford corporate. I filed complaints. I called back the dealership and got the owner involved. In the end, I have my Mach-E finally, the one I ordered, for the price I ordered it, but not without a terrible experience.

That's terrible. I'm glad you got your car.

 

[yngwenli]

I think rather than lack of being smart, it is probably laziness. People don't pay attention because it takes effort. You put a lot of effort into understanding every line item, every dollar amount. Personally I would probably let the $10 line item go, unless there were a lot of them. That is me being lazy, I fully admit, but it isn't work my effort when I just want to move on to something else.

Maybe the people buying expensive gas think that station is more convenient than driving another mile, or maybe they are stupid, or maybe they are just lazy. Regardless, they are willing to pay it so the Shell continues to charge it. If people didn't want to pay it, the Shell would have to lower their prices.

The right price is the price the seller is willing to sell it for, and the price the buyer is willing to pay. If I sell my house for $100k less than the identical house next door, did I sell it for the right price? I did if I needed to get the sale done quickly and for cash today, rather than wait for a month for someone with appraisals and other loan delays? Or maybe I should have raised my price, added more "ADM". That is my decision, and the buyer's choice to pay it or not.

If Mercedes dealers add $50k on top of their cars, and people are willing to pay it, then it is the right price. If the cars sit there unsold, the dealer will lower their ADM until someone buys the cars. The point is there is no reason why a Mercedes that costs $120k can't be priced too low if they are selling out of them at $120k and the buyers are willing to pay more.

Haha, maybe it's just me, but I think some people are just too stupid to even know where to start to do research. They can have all the time and won't get it so don't bother and just blindly believe whatever dealers/salesmen tell them. I think we can all agree salesmen are wrong a LOT for many many industries. Finance, cars, solar, you name it. So much BS/lies/wrong info.

Like those stories of old people getting scammed to send $$ to some foreign country...True story, I saw this personally at the Post Office where the postal worker was telling her not do that, but the old lady just had to.

At the end of the day, most people view paying the least for a product vs. someone else as smart.

Most view saving $$ as smart or that's the 'right' thing or the thing everyone should do. Of course, some people have more $$ than time so for those people, I guess it's nice to be so rich to not have to wait.

I'd personally rather not live a lifestyle of poor planning, must have it now and rather buy more toys or do other things with the $5-20k these other folks are willing to dump for a car (at the end of the day, it is 'just' a car).

 

[Reign of Ravens]

If people are willing to pay more for something by definition the price is too low.

I work in healthcare. Let me ask: how much would you be willing to pay to save your arm? Your vision? Your life? Some people can put a price to those things, but me, I'd pay everything I own. Without your health, you have nothing. Unsurprisingly, the majority of people I come across seem to feel the same way. Do you think healthcare costs are too low just because we're not routinely taking people for everything they're worth?

How about running water, or electricity? I'd easily pay 100x more than I currently do for those things. Wouldn't you? I'd wager most people would. But then society would grind to a halt because people wouldn't be able to afford much else, would they?

The "correct price" isn't what some random rich person can afford to pay, nor is it something that the vast majority of people need to go into debt over. Not unless you're trying to make some high-value, low-volume product that caters specifically to the ultra-wealthy. Ford and Mercedes are not Rimac or Bugatti. Henry Ford had it right: he wanted to produce cars that his own workers would be able to afford. That vision transformed society in multiple ways for the better.

My view, as a non-economist who is also watching his own field getting destroyed by trends that are sweeping the world, is this: companies deserve to make a profit for the work they do and the products they create, but there's a difference between profit and greed. Sorry if anyone on this forum feels called out by this, but the huge influx of administrators and managers who have never known anything but administration, and who view it as their job to just endlessly increase profits, are ruining companies and society as a whole. I'm sympathetic insofar as that they're trying to justify their own jobs and prove their worth to the company, but in the long run it is ruining us. The views you've stated sound like what I've heard from disconnected middle management. Profits in the short term, without thinking of the customers, the long-term impacts to the company, or the company's impact to society.

 

[yngwenli]

The problem with using healthcare as a comparison is that USA healthcare is inflated a lot compared to most other developed nations. Look at the price gouging of Epipen.

Also, I've had/seen hundreds of thousands of bills that since I had insurance, I paid a much smaller amount, but literally everyone would be bankrupt if they had to pay that. Is that the true cost of the medical care? I'm guessing totally, but my guess is a solid NO.

Saving a life/arm, etc has a certain cost and there is a cost of doing business and companies deserve profits, etc...but healthcare in the USA is the most expensive for probably not even the best care for many many reasons. Maybe it's to subsidize no insurance folks who don't pay and overcharge folks who can pay, maybe it's our bad state of health in general (poor diet, lack of exercise, etc....).

The problem with healthcare and costs vs. stuff like cars is really, none of it is transparent.

If anything, our healthcare is sorta like getting a $20k ADM after we had agreements/confirmed order prices that health care companies won't disclose to you other than to tell you that you need to sign this to be treated or we won't even try.

 

[RedStallion]

What’s the difference between the following things?

1. Manufacturer lowers or eliminates a rebate
2. Manufacturer raises MSRP
3. Dealer negotiated a higher price
4. Dealer adds ADM
5. Manufacturer raises finance rate
6. Dealer offers less for trade in

I think the difference is obvious. People (me included) have no desire to even discuss those issues with the sleazy car dealers. If I could I would like to avoid any contact with them or visiting a dealership and I would pay premium for that.

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