📈 Mach-E Q2 2023 Results: 8,633 Sales / 38,497 Produced

[dbsb3233]

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree in part. I think we both agree on the younger crowd. My younger friends aren't buying EVs, but even with the ICE vehicles they buy I've never heard one say they need or want ACP/AA. The restraints are more so budgetary. Where I disagree is in the EV sales numbers. The average EV owner is in their mid 50s and makes 6 digits according to recent data. It's not nearly as much of a budgetary issue for them. The vehicles with ACP/AA are well known, from very well know manufacturers. People are choosing to put their money into vehicles without it. While I suppose some might like to have it in a Tesla, for example, it wasn't a deal breaker, enough to go to VW, Ford, Hyundai etc and the numbers, especial production vs delivery, prove that. There's no wait for an MME, but there is for Tesla, yet they go Tesla. The MME reporting a YoY loss and getting beat by a 100k truck proves, in my opinion, that people don't care about ACP/AA as much as some think.

I think we're kinda saying the same thing in different ways. Yep, ACP/AA is rarely a big enough priority for people to be the deal-breaker one way or the other. It's a nice feature, like power liftgate and heated seats and all that kinda stuff, but it's rarely the single biggie that the overall purchase decision is based on.

Any use of sales stats attempting to tie ACP/AA to purchase decisions would have to include ICE too, otherwise it's just a small subset heavily skewed by other factors. I thought that's what you were doing initially but now it sounds like that wasn't the way you meant it, in which case we agree.

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[AZBill]

GM shut down its 1 EV seller, the Bolt end of 23. GM numbers will plummet. MME had no production for a couple of months and has now ramped up. Can’t sell what you don’t produce. Tesla made 13,000 more than they sold. That is meaningless unless it continues over a long time causing a very large inventory buildup.

GM has had issues ramping up the new battery plant, and it was shut down temporarily recently. The Bolt plant is converting to Silverado EV. GM also has a big gap between builds and sales, just like Ford. Some of that is the logistics of shipping. Just as an example GM has already built Equinox and Blazer EVs, but has not delivered a single one to a customer yet.

At any rate, I just got to order my Hummer EV, will see how many months it takes to get it.

 

[curtisfinney]

They are deliveries, meaning someone took possession of the vehicle.



The numbers just don't show that ACP/AA are that important. I really don't think age is going to impact that at all. Most of my friends are in their late 20s to late 30s and I don't think any care about ACP. As long as Apple music, Spotify, YouTube music etc play they don't care about anything else.

Here's the YTD US stats. The top 4 don't have ACP/AA:

I think you missed my point about Tesla and Rivian. They are market leaders that offer a great or good enough user experience where customers are willing to forgo Apple CarPlay and Android Auto for other things they offer. The legacy automakers have proven to be horrible at user interfaces and Farley has made comments around this where they lost that battle 10 years ago.

The legacy automakers user experience remind me of the walled gardens that Verizon, Sprint, and most other cell phone providers created with Nokia, Motorola, Blackberry, and other cell phone manufacturers built before Apple created the iPhone and Apple got AT&T to give up control and break that model. Before my iPhone, I only used my phone for texting and calling.

Did you survey your younger friends? Are they representative of the population of car buyers?

The data I’ve seen and news articles I’ve read point to this being a powerful requirement.

 

[DevSecOps]

Did you survey your younger friends? Are they representative of the population of car buyers?

The data I’ve seen and news articles I’ve read point to this being a powerful requirement.

My subset of friends obviously doesn't represent the population as a whole, but neither does the authors of articles that only write them for revenue and clicks.

As someone who is in their 30's (at least for a couple more days) and heavily into technology, I think that ACP, especially, has a hideous UI that's stuck in the mid 2000s.

Purely based on my observations, the people who cry the most about the lack of ACP/AA are older, not younger. Most younger people adopt to technology easier. It's the older crowd that wants to hang on to everything from 15 years ago. That's across the board for the most part. I speak at very large technology conventions on emerging tech, and it's always the older crowd that nay-says. I can't tell you how many times my dad said "I'll never deposit a check on my phone" or "I'll never text". Now he raves about how he deposits checks on his phone via text.

On this forum, there's a bunch of people who swear to never buy a vehicle without ACP/AA, and there's just as many who swear never to buy a vehicle with NACS. My bet is that it's all hot air.

 

[hprose]

My subset of friends obviously doesn't represent the population as a whole, but neither does the authors of articles that only write them for revenue and clicks.

As someone who is in their 30's (at least for a couple more days) and heavily into technology, I think that ACP, especially, has a hideous UI that's stuck in the mid 2000s.

Purely based on my observations, the people who cry the most about the lack of ACP/AA are older, not younger. Most younger people adopt to technology easier. It's the older crowd that wants to hang on to everything from 15 years ago. That's across the board for the most part. I speak at very large technology conventions on emerging tech, and it's always the older crowd that nay-says. I can't tell you how many times my dad said "I'll never deposit a check on my phone" or "I'll never text". Now he raves about how he deposits checks on his phone via text.

On this forum, there's a bunch of people who swear to never buy a vehicle without ACP/AA, and there's just as many who swear never to buy a vehicle with NACS. My bet is that it's all hot air.

Last things first: NACS is a plug not a technology. It is neither better nor worse than CCS, it’s just that in this country there are a whole lot of chargers that are NACS. Teslas in Europe are built with CCS only. User interfaces: Microsoft Window UI hasn’t changed that much in 30 years. Features have been added but visually it is very much the same. The phone is a computer with voice added. ACP AA are extensions of that computer. Having spent some amount of time in both Teslas and GM EVs I am not hugely impressed by their UIs. Ford’s native UI covers car functions. That’s all very well and nice but not an extension of what I was doing before I got in my vehicle. I do find that most users are comfortable with what they had before and don’t like change. My wife has a 250 and also drives my MME. We previously had a Fusion Energi and a Bolt. She is not a tech person. She has moved seamlessly between them due to the common CarPlay interface. She doesn’t care about a millisecond quicker response time, touch latency or the shape of the icons. A friend who was an early Tesla adopter (his wife had an S and he had a 3) traded to an MME last August and his first comment on the UI was “at last Apple CarPlay”. Most people buy based on looks, exterior and interior, driving experience and comfort. Another friend got rid of his wife’s Mercedes because he found the seats uncomfortable. Bought a Lexus. When I asked them about the Lexus UI the comment was essentially “who cares”. Much of the software used by younger users are programs within a user interface. They are not UIs. And I, as an older user, have spent a lot of time explaining to my children and to others how to use many of the functions of their phones and computers. I have helped design UIs for major financial companies. The end result is never close to what I hoped for and usually looks 15 years old the day it comes out. A good UI is one that is comfortable for the maximum number of users.

 

[dbsb3233]

I think you missed my point about Tesla and Rivian. They are market leaders that offer a great or good enough user experience where customers are willing to forgo Apple CarPlay and Android Auto for other things they offer. The legacy automakers have proven to be horrible at user interfaces and Farley has made comments around this where they lost that battle 10 years ago.

The legacy automakers user experience remind me of the walled gardens that Verizon, Sprint, and most other cell phone providers created with Nokia, Motorola, Blackberry, and other cell phone manufacturers built before Apple created the iPhone and Apple got AT&T to give up control and break that model. Before my iPhone, I only used my phone for texting and calling.

Did you survey your younger friends? Are they representative of the population of car buyers?

The data I’ve seen and news articles I’ve read point to this being a powerful requirement.

Younger people may want a fancy UI and may want an EV, but when it comes to who's actually buying them, they're not that big of a factor. They usually have less money on average and only a modest% can actually afford it. So they settle for something cheaper, like an ICE, or a used car. The age demographic of actual EV buyers skews older. Not because of wants, but because of wealth.

We're still at the point where BEVs are have a significant purchase price premium relative to ICE, and there's just not enough BEVs being manufactured to keep up with overall demand (mostly due to battery supply constraints). Down the road after that balances and there's plenty of supply, things like the UI can be tiebreakers, but for now there's much bigger factors.

Young people want EVs… but their wallets don’t
https://thehustle.co/11142022-electric-vehicles/

 

[curtisfinney]

Younger people may want a fancy UI and may want an EV, but when it comes to who's actually buying them, they're not that big of a factor. They usually have less money on average and only a modest% can actually afford it. So they settle for something cheaper, like an ICE, or a used car. The age demographic of actual EV buyers skews older. Not because of wants, but because of wealth.

We're still at the point where BEVs are have a significant purchase price premium relative to ICE, and there's just not enough BEVs being manufactured to keep up with overall demand (mostly due to battery supply constraints). Down the road after that balances and there's plenty of supply, things like the UI can be tiebreakers, but for now there's much bigger factors.

Young people want EVs… but their wallets don’t
https://thehustle.co/11142022-electric-vehicles/

I agree if you are talking about boomers. But many of us below age 59 (I’m 52) have different technology requirements and we do have wealth. Sure those below 22 may not be able to afford a new car, and there are loans available for those that can’t afford to pay cash.

I’m also not sure boomers buy cars as frequently as the rest of us

 

[phil]

Here's the YTD US stats. The top 4 don't have ACP/AA:

The Chevy Bolt has always had AA and ACP.

 

[DevSecOps]

The Chevy Bolt has always had AA and ACP.

True but moving forward GM won't. I think the GM lineup is gonna obliterate Ford and it won't have ACP/AA. I agree with whoever said they should have released the explorer EV in the USA.

 

[phil]

True but moving forward GM won't. I think the GM lineup is gonna obliterate Ford and it won't have ACP/AA.

That wouldn't surprise me; I think GM has long been more interested and more capable than Ford with respect to electric cars.

CarPlay/AA is handy when wireless. I generally couldn't be bothered to plug in a cable. But I agree it's not a big deal, even to elderly buyers. In my old car, I just clip my phone to the steering wheel, and that works fine. A simple bluetooth connection would be more than sufficient.

 

[dbsb3233]

True but moving forward GM won't. I think the GM lineup is gonna obliterate Ford and it won't have ACP/AA. I agree with whoever said they should have released the explorer EV in the USA.

I think it comes down mostly to battery supply. GM started building it's in-house battery plants sooner than Ford. The OH Ultium plant opened last year, TN should start this year, with MI in 2025 and IN in 2026. Meanwhile Ford's first plants in TN, KY, and MI don't open till 2025/2026.

That should give GM a big volume advantage while Ford is still stuck having to ship in cells from Europe and Asia, surely at a premium for having to go entirely 3rd party (plus extra shipping).

 

[dbsb3233]

CarPlay/AA is handy when wireless. I generally couldn't be bothered to plug in a cable.

Wireless (when it works) is a lot more convenient locally, when just hopping in and out of the car for short drives. But on roads trips I've just resigned myself to plugging in because AA drains the battery faster than the charging pad charges it. If I don't plug in I risk arriving with a battery at only 30% or something.

We just bought a new Bronco Sport for our 2nd vehicle to the MME. It has AA too (albeit a smaller screen) and it's wired only, so I'll probably just get back in the habit of plugging in when getting in either vehicle most times now.

 

[curtisfinney]

Wireless (when it works) is a lot more convenient locally, when just hopping in and out of the car for short drives. But on roads trips I've just resigned myself to plugging in because AA drains the battery faster than the charging pad charges it. If I don't plug in I risk arriving with a battery at only 30% or something.

We just bought a new Bronco Sport for our 2nd vehicle to the MME. It has AA too (albeit a smaller screen) and it's wired only, so I'll probably just get back in the habit of plugging in when getting in either vehicle most times now.

Wireless (when it works) is a lot more convenient locally, when just hopping in and out of the car for short drives. But on roads trips I've just resigned myself to plugging in because AA drains the battery faster than the charging pad charges it. If I don't plug in I risk arriving with a battery at only 30% or something.

We just bought a new Bronco Sport for our 2nd vehicle to the MME. It has AA too (albeit a smaller screen) and it's wired only, so I'll probably just get back in the habit of plugging in when getting in either vehicle most times now.

That wouldn't surprise me; I think GM has long been more interested and more capable than Ford with respect to electric cars.

CarPlay/AA is handy when wireless. I generally couldn't be bothered to plug in a cable. But I agree it's not a big deal, even to elderly buyers. In my old car, I just clip my phone to the steering wheel, and that works fine. A simple bluetooth connection would be more than sufficient.

we will see who is right when this all plays out.

https://www.thedrive.com/features/people-want-apple-carplay

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