Ist road trip, range is not off big time?

[david_quick]

Close to it.

In the summer my reported range at 85% is between 290 and 300.

In the normal Georgia winter temps (high near 50, low in the mid 30's) my reported range at 85% is between 240 and 250.

In the past few days in Georgia with the high in the mid 30's and the low in the teens my reported range at 85% is between 200 and 210. That is a 44% drop in reported range between summer peak and winter valley.

And that is with my normal grandma style driving. If I were actually driving at highway speeds I would see an even larger drop in reported range. We don't even see the biggest drop since our winters in Georgia are relatively minor.

But it really doesn't matter if your day to day driving is under 175 miles a day.

Road trips in the winter will require more frequent and longer DCFC sessions.

Your winter climate is similar to here in the Seattle area. My 23 GT has very similar ranges . Temps here have been in the mid 20s low 30s for the last week.

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[apwelsh]

One week into my ownership. Taking a 161 mile trip, I left home the Mach E said 244 miles to empty. I drive 130 miles and had to stop to recharge, it says I have 23 miles to empty!???

What is going on here?






















































What the hell?

Yup.

I drove from Riverside, CA to Las Vegas, NV. The trip is 242 miles. I scheduled my battery to charge to 100% and my departure times.

According to the FordPass nav, I only needed to charge in Barstow for 15 minutes. (Approx). When I got to Bishop I was down to 55%. I charged for 41mins to get to 81%.

I then had more than enough charge for the trip, but shortly after passing Baker, CA (7 miles past) I had less than 40miles remaining so I turned around and drove back to baker, where I found a 350kW charger. I charged in baker from 23% to 81% in 30mins.
From here I continued my drive to Vegas, and feel like I just barely made it.

in Vegas, I charged to 100% so I could return home starting with a full charge. I added 70% charge.

The return trip was only slightly better.
Add 39% charge in Baker, CA
Then added 37% charge in Barstow,CA
and was at 42% when I arrived home.

So in summary, I traveled a total of 484 miles and used 288% battery, instead of 200%. For an average round trip range of 168 miles per charge, instead of the estimated 250 miles per charge.

Ford only achieves 67% of the claimed range in my real life round trip drive.

Simply put, Ford way over estimates the range, assuming a travel speed of probably around 20mph, on a flat surface with no environmental interference. And unlike ICE cars, the impact of the environment on range is quite substantial. This trip involves a lot of gradual up/down hill travel. Nothing extreme except near the start/end of the round trip, which I avoided by taking a side road that helps level the drive for half the mountain climb, going over the mountains at the start (for the end I used the slope to improve efficiency). What is evident is that regenerative technology is a nickel and dime game. If all the conditions are just right, you can regenerate a very small amount of power, but no enough to make a real impact, as shown by the inly
Slightly better range coming home (almost all down hill) and still very poor range

My Vegas trips typically take me just under 3 hours. The average speed is 85Mph and I never need to stop. This trip took me over 5 hours, because I had to keep my speed down for efficiency, and had to stop too much for too long.

Attached is my evidence for all you that insist any negative comments from me are just fake. The blind loyalty is disgusting because these are very real issues and telling us we are lying doesn’t change the results my proof on my trip’s crappy performance.

 

[Hammered]

Yup.

I drove from Riverside, CA to Las Vegas, NV. The trip is 242 miles. I scheduled my battery to charge to 100% and my departure times.

According to the FordPass nav, I only needed to charge in Barstow for 15 minutes. (Approx). When I got to Bishop I was down to 55%. I charged for 41mins to get to 81%.

I then had more than enough charge for the trip, but shortly after passing Baker, CA (7 miles past) I had less than 40miles remaining so I turned around and drove back to baker, where I found a 350kW charger. I charged in baker from 23% to 81% in 30mins.
From here I continued my drive to Vegas, and feel like I just barely made it.

in Vegas, I charged to 100% so I could return home starting with a full charge. I added 70% charge.

The return trip was only slightly better.
Add 39% charge in Baker, CA
Then added 37% charge in Barstow,CA
and was at 42% when I arrived home.

So in summary, I traveled a total of 484 miles and used 288% battery, instead of 200%. For an average round trip range of 168 miles per charge, instead of the estimated 250 miles per charge.

Ford only achieves 67% of the claimed range in my real life round trip drive.

Simply put, Ford way over estimates the range, assuming a travel speed of probably around 20mph, on a flat surface with no environmental interference. And unlike ICE cars, the impact of the environment on range is quite substantial. This trip involves a lot of gradual up/down hill travel. Nothing extreme except near the start/end of the round trip, which I avoided by taking a side road that helps level the drive for half the mountain climb, going over the mountains at the start (for the end I used the slope to improve efficiency). What is evident is that regenerative technology is a nickel and dime game. If all the conditions are just right, you can regenerate a very small amount of power, but no enough to make a real impact, as shown by the inly
Slightly better range coming home (almost all down hill) and still very poor range

My Vegas trips typically take me just under 3 hours. The average speed is 85Mph and I never need to stop. This trip took me over 5 hours, because I had to keep my speed down for efficiency, and had to stop too much for too long.

Attached is my evidence for all you that insist any negative comments from me are just fake. The blind loyalty is disgusting because these are very real issues and telling us we are lying doesn’t change the results my proof on my trip’s crappy performance.

Ooof, major suck. I get 600 miles range in my F150 at highway speeds per tank. I can't believe you weren't even able to make it on a single charging stop (realistically it shouldn't have required any). That's just brutal.

 

[apwelsh]

(realistically it shouldn't have required any). That's just brutal.

Yup. Never had to stop for the trip. In my 88.5 Ford Escort Pony, I could do the full turn-around trip w/o fueling up. Cars got better mileage back then without all the fancy and over complicated hybrid tech.
I didn’t buy this for travel, it’s a commuter. But this exposes the very real problem with current BEV technology. The motors can do more than ICE, but modern battery tech just cannot store enough potential energy to compete with ICE. We need the next-gen batteries out now, not in 10-15 years.

What I did not mention is that state line (Primm, NV) would have been a safe destination for the 2nd charge (a bit of a stretch according to the car, but the car doesn’t know about grades, and I knew it was about to be all downhill) — if they had more than just a Tesla Super charging station there.

What I did learn is the Electrify America seems to be the best DC fast charging as I could reliably fine 350kW chargers, and aomw were really nice stations. The others I have used since purchasing the car all under-perform (claiming to be 100+kW but only delivering 26kW)

 

[apwelsh]

Oh yeah, if you are trying to find DC fast charging, avoid Rivian stations. The ford Nav says they are in-network, but the chargers refuse to link to the car. The two stations I tried state they are for Rivian only.

 

[mateo]

Reality is EVs lose substantially more range than their ICE counterparts for adverse conditions. Something you just need to get used to.

I never thought about efficiency before owning an EV other than when making my purchase. But now, I calculate driving 80 instead of 70 saves me 12 minutes of driving time over 120 miles but increases my charging time by more than that.

If I can still make it in one charge and know I'll be charging when I arrive maybe I'll still go 80. If not, I just cruise at the posted speed limit with the realization it won't affect my arrival time in any way that substantially affects my life.

In the meantime I save 10 minutes every week not ever having to fill up with gas at a smelly gas station.

Of course your driving needs may be different from mine to the point an EV isn't a good option. ??

 

[OWG]

Range decrease due to cold weather! -- Explanation & how to calculate actual range | MachEforum - Ford Mustang Mach-E News, Owners, Discussions, Community

One week into my ownership. Taking a 161 mile trip, I left home the Mach E said 244 miles to empty. I drive 130 miles and had to stop to recharge, it says I have 23 miles to empty!???

What is going on here?






















































What the hell?

Range decrease due to cold weather! -- Explanation & how to calculate actual range | MachEforum - Ford Mustang Mach-E News, Owners, Discussions, Community

 

[MellowJohnny]

Also, it will take a little while for the GOM to re-adjust. This week-end we had a swim meet 72km away. Friday at 6:00 am it was -15c and after preconditioning, the GOM showed like 324 km @ 100% SoC. Normally all my driving is in town. I knew that was going to be impossible at highway speeds at that temp.

So the GoM was showing me the above freezing, driving-around-town-with-a-warm-battery guesstimate.

I got like maybe 220 km that out of that full charge.

By the third day of the swim meet the GoM had re-adjusted and under the same conditions and SoC it displayed 224 km.

So it takes a while, but when the conditions change quite a lot from "normal" it will be wrong. Sometimes waaaaaay wrong.

But it learns and re-adjusts.

 

[superdave80]

In my 88.5 Ford Escort Pony, I could do the full turn-around trip w/o fueling up. Cars got better mileage back then without all the fancy and over complicated hybrid tech.

'88 Ford Escort MPG hwy: 33 (couldn't specifically find a 'pony' rating)
'23 Ford Escape Hybrid MPG hwy: 36

 

[thekat03]

Yup.

I drove from Riverside, CA to Las Vegas, NV. The trip is 242 miles. I scheduled my battery to charge to 100% and my departure times.

According to the FordPass nav, I only needed to charge in Barstow for 15 minutes. (Approx). When I got to Bishop I was down to 55%. I charged for 41mins to get to 81%.

I then had more than enough charge for the trip, but shortly after passing Baker, CA (7 miles past) I had less than 40miles remaining so I turned around and drove back to baker, where I found a 350kW charger. I charged in baker from 23% to 81% in 30mins.
From here I continued my drive to Vegas, and feel like I just barely made it.

in Vegas, I charged to 100% so I could return home starting with a full charge. I added 70% charge.

The return trip was only slightly better.
Add 39% charge in Baker, CA
Then added 37% charge in Barstow,CA
and was at 42% when I arrived home.

So in summary, I traveled a total of 484 miles and used 288% battery, instead of 200%. For an average round trip range of 168 miles per charge, instead of the estimated 250 miles per charge.

Ford only achieves 67% of the claimed range in my real life round trip drive.

Simply put, Ford way over estimates the range, assuming a travel speed of probably around 20mph, on a flat surface with no environmental interference. And unlike ICE cars, the impact of the environment on range is quite substantial. This trip involves a lot of gradual up/down hill travel. Nothing extreme except near the start/end of the round trip, which I avoided by taking a side road that helps level the drive for half the mountain climb, going over the mountains at the start (for the end I used the slope to improve efficiency). What is evident is that regenerative technology is a nickel and dime game. If all the conditions are just right, you can regenerate a very small amount of power, but no enough to make a real impact, as shown by the inly
Slightly better range coming home (almost all down hill) and still very poor range

My Vegas trips typically take me just under 3 hours. The average speed is 85Mph and I never need to stop. This trip took me over 5 hours, because I had to keep my speed down for efficiency, and had to stop too much for too long.

Attached is my evidence for all you that insist any negative comments from me are just fake. The blind loyalty is disgusting because these are very real issues and telling us we are lying doesn’t change the results my proof on my trip’s crappy performance.

FYI the EPA estimated range is mixed city and highway driving, where they define highway as driving 60 mph. A road trip from Riverside, CA, to Las Vegas, NV, probably happened at much higher speeds than that. Unlike gas cars, which are less efficient with city driving and more efficient at freeway speeds, hybrids and EVs are less efficient at freeway speeds, especially when people consider 80 mph or faster normal freeway speeds.

This isn't a case of Ford overestimating range. It's a case of not understanding what the numbers actually mean.

 

[TheSteelRider]

FYI the EPA estimated range is mixed city and highway driving, where they define highway as driving 60 mph. A road trip from Riverside, CA, to Las Vegas, NV, probably happened at much higher speeds than that. Unlike gas cars, which are less efficient with city driving and more efficient at freeway speeds, hybrids and EVs are less efficient at freeway speeds, especially when people consider 80 mph or faster normal freeway speeds.

This isn't a case of Ford overestimating range. It's a case of not understanding what the numbers actually mean.

Yeah, most people just look at the single EPA number which is a "combined" number. They do, however, also list both the city and highway estimates independent of the "combined" number. Now, they do it for EVs in the strange "MPGe" (Miles Per Gallon equivalent), but nonetheless we can back-convert that to KWh

For example, here is a 2021 Mach E RWD ER, EPA rating of "300 miles".
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=43605

Notice for the highway, it's 90 MPGe. Thankfully, on the left they tell us 1 Gallon of gas = 33.7KWh.

Knowing the RWD ER (at the time of EPA testing) had approximately 88 KW usable, therefore we know the Mach E could travel on a highway by doing the maths.

88 KW usable / 33.7 KWh in each gallon of gas = 2.61 equivalent gallons of gas
90 MPGe * 2.61 equivalent gallons of gas = 234.9 highway miles

So, the EPA says about 235 highway miles of range. Let's now explore what the EPA says "highway driving" is:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

So to the EPA, "highway driving" means an average fo about 48 MPH. Not sure what the highways are like where you are, but here "highway" means 75 MPH.

Now, the EPA claims they do "magic" (my words) to account for things, but I'm not convinced the magic is powerful enough to overcome the fantasy and really represent real mileage.

So, it's a good practice to take that highway number (235) and adjust it DOWN a bit to get a real world "max highway range". Note: If you have an AWD, or an SR battery, or heaven forbid an AWD with an SR battery, your mileage will be less or much less than my example.

P.S. Please double-check my maths here and make sure I used the calculator correctly

 

[ChasingCoral]

One week into my ownership. Taking a 161 mile trip, I left home the Mach E said 244 miles to empty. I drive 130 miles and had to stop to recharge, it says I have 23 miles to empty!???

What is going on here?






















































What the hell?

Read this:
https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...ulate-how-far-your-mach-e-can-really-go.6104/

 

[apwelsh]

'88 Ford Escort MPG hwy: 33 (couldn't specifically find a 'pony' rating)
'23 Ford Escape Hybrid MPG hwy: 36

I got 35 MPG on average. And, it was CFI, not even EFI. with a stock / standard carburetor air filter. My Fusion hybrid gets worse mileage, with less oomph. If I really baby it, and apply hyper milling techniques, I can get it up to 38 average - but I didn’t know that stuff back then, I just wanted to fast

The pony was the base model, with nothing in it, no AC and no radio. I installed several aftermarket sound components but never add AC. In the inland empire of Southern California, I had the windows down practically all the time to keep cool. I got pulled over doing 120 more than once, and back then I would travel at just below 100Mph going between home and Vegas, but it still got good mileage as long as I wasn’t racing it..

 

[apwelsh]

Yeah, most people just look at the single EPA number which is a "combined" number. They do, however, also list both the city and highway estimates independent of the "combined" number. Now, they do it for EVs in the strange "MPGe" (Miles Per Gallon equivalent), but nonetheless we can back-convert that to KWh

For example, here is a 2021 Mach E RWD ER, EPA rating of "300 miles".
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=43605

Notice for the highway, it's 90 MPGe. Thankfully, on the left they tell us 1 Gallon of gas = 33.7KWh.

Knowing the RWD ER (at the time of EPA testing) had approximately 88 KW usable, therefore we know the Mach E could travel on a highway by doing the maths.

88 KW usable / 33.7 KWh in each gallon of gas = 2.61 equivalent gallons of gas
90 MPGe * 2.61 equivalent gallons of gas = 234.9 highway miles

So, the EPA says about 235 highway miles of range. Let's now explore what the EPA says "highway driving" is:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

So to the EPA, "highway driving" means an average fo about 48 MPH. Not sure what the highways are like where you are, but here "highway" means 75 MPH.

Now, the EPA claims they do "magic" (my words) to account for things, but I'm not convinced the magic is powerful enough to overcome the fantasy and really represent real mileage.

So, it's a good practice to take that highway number (235) and adjust it DOWN a bit to get a real world "max highway range". Note: If you have an AWD, or an SR battery, or heaven forbid an AWD with an SR battery, your mileage will be less or much less than my example.

P.S. Please double-check my maths here and make sure I used the calculator correctly

I agree, and I would be happy with that. I used the Ford navigation for the trip, even though I’ve driven it numerous times, because I wanted to know where and when to charge. The car kept re-adjusting my route as it realized I would not make it. I drove at 70 and 75Mph. Typically I drive 85-90 but being electric and knowing energy loss increases with heat, I figured I would stick to the speed limit so as to not be going too slow, but also not wasting energy. I don’t know any highways that are 45 — maybe they confused highway with parkway? ?

I would have been happy with any number over 200miles — I would have made it with a single charge. But at 168 average, it just wasn’t possible. And driving at the speed limit turned a 3 hour trip into a 3.75 hour trip, and charging added another 1.25 hours to the trip, resulting in an excruciating 5 hours. Add 2.5 more hours and I could have driven all the way to Reno, NV in my hybrid car.

Thanks for the math, I knew highway was lower than city. I just didn’t do the math to see exactly what the difference was. Speed = heat, and heat is wasted energy.

 

[TheSteelRider]

I agree, and I would be happy with that. I use the Fors navigation for the trip, even though I’ve driven it numerous times, because I wanted to know where and when to charge. The car kept re-adjusting my route as it realized I would not make it. I drove at 70 and 75Mph. Typically I drive 85-90 but being electric and knowing energy loss increases with heat, I figured I would stick to the speed limit so as to not be going too slow, but also not wasting energy. I don’t know any highways that are 45 — maybe the confused highway with parkway? ?

I would have been happy with any number over 200miles — I would have made it with a single charge. But at 168 average, it just wasn’t possible. And driving at the speed limit turned a 3 hour trip into a 3.75 hour trip, and charging added another 1.25 hours to the trip, resulting in an excruciating 5 hours. Add 2.5 more hours and I could have driven all the way to Reno, NV in my hybrid car.

Thanks for the math, I knew highway was lower than city. I just didn’t do the math to see exactly what the difference was. Speed = heat, and heat is wasted energy.

Your profile says you have an SR battery. I don't know if you have an RWD or AWD, but assuming you have an RWD ... (correct me if I'm wrong and I'll redo the maths)

Your vehicle has about 72 KWh usable memory serving. And 2023s claim 96 MPGe highway. So, your EPA highway range is 205 miles. Which means, in real highway driving, it's likely always going to be less than 200 miles. In the winter it will be much worse. If I'm wrong and you have an AWD, it's even worser-er.

So, your 168 seems about right.

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