PSA Warning: PAAK might leave your Mach-E (or possessions inside) vulnerable to theft

[thenew3]

Yes, but it uses the door control modules. They have shorter detection ranges.

And what communication protocol does the door control module use? If it's not BT and not UWB.

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[Mach1E]

So I just did this using my Iphone. Location Services was set to 'Always allow'. Even if I closed the Ford Pass app by flicking up from the bottom of the app, my car would open freely. However, when I changed Location Services to 'While using the app', and I closed the Ford Pass app, I could never get the car to open no matter how many times I put my phone next to the button on the door. Even after walking away and coming back I could never get it open.

So as you mentioned, the rule of thumb for iphone users is to set the Location Services to "While using the app' for the Ford Pass app. That way your car won't just open if you're 30, 40, 50 or 1 ft away as long as the app is closed.

You Android users also have a similar setting. You can select "Allowed only while in use" under Location Services for the Ford Pass app.

This is the case for me, I use location services only while using the app and my doors won’t unlock with the app closed.

May be the solution.

 

[garyd9]

If the MME doesn't use UWB, how does it detect when the phone is far away enough and auto lock the car (walk away lock)?

My car locks when I walk 10-15 feet away. My phone is still connected to the car via BT and I can still lower/raise windows from the app. so how does it know I've walked sufficiently away to lock the car while the BT is still connected? (I can easily connect to BT even from 50-100 ft away).

Good question. Perhaps time of flight? Perhaps signal strength? Not sure. Neither would be ideal solutions. Usually when BLE is used for proximity detection, the device detecting proximity (such as your phone) is active and the target (such as a tracker) is semi-passive.

In this case, the car is trying to detect the active device, and active devices might vary RF signal strength, or might have a bit of processing overhead that would delay a TOF response, etc.

The only other way I can think of would be some kind of triangulation. However, triangulating distances OUTSIDE of a triangle is error-prone outside of line-of-sight and open-air.

(There are people who know so much more about this than I do - maybe even some reading this thread. Perhaps they can chime in.)

 

[garyd9]

And what communication protocol does the door control module use? If it's not BT and not UWB.

It's absolutely bluetooth.

 

[thenew3]

It's absolutely bluetooth.

Does the keyfob also use BT? If not, then how does it know to lock the car when you've walked 10-15 ft away? The keyfob stlil works (buttons on it) from 30-50 ft away.

Just curious what mechanism the MME uses to determine when a PAAK or FOB is far enough away to auto lock the car but still within range to receive commands from PAAK or FOB.

 

[garyd9]

Does the keyfob also use BT? If not, then how does it know to lock the car when you've walked 10-15 ft away? The keyfob stlil works (buttons on it) from 30-50 ft away.

Just curious what mechanism the MME uses to determine when a PAAK or FOB is far enough away to auto lock the car but still within range to receive commands from PAAK or FOB.

The fob and PaaK use different technologies.

The fob proximity (passive functionality) uses different technology than the fob buttons (active functionality.)

(I don't know any details of the passive functionality. I could take some educated guesses, but they'd just be guesses.)

 

[VindictivePantz]

FWIW, my car was in my garage yesterday, and I accidentally left my phone on the kitchen table which is ~15-20 feet away from my car (and the closed door entering the garage.)

I could not get in the vehicle, at all. No lights, no clicking, nothing. I then got my phone, went to the car, and PaaK worked.

The door to our garage is metal (most likely aluminum) and not solid, and given Bluetooth's rough standard range of 30', I would have thought I would have been able to get in.

• Android 13
• Fordpass v.5.03 App Permissions:
  • Location
  • Nearby Devices
• Wi-Fi and Bluetooth enabled on phone
  • Location services off; I only turn those on an app-by-app basis, though I am assuming that some location is being reported via WiFi

YMMMV, since most everything has a 2.4/5GHZ radio these days and my house is full of them, other factors such as radio interference/noise, plus the metal door might have factored into the distance.

Pure, uneducated speculation on my part (it is the internet,) most modern phones have proximity sensors and accidental touch, so I wonder if that's a factor as well (i.e. PaaK uses that state to determine if the phone is near someone before enabling if the 'host' phone has those features. If the phone does not have those features, it just looks for a signal?)

 

[Fixbear]

And what communication protocol does the door control module use? If it's not BT and not UWB.

try RFID chip. Car transmits a signal that activates the chip. Yes a form of UWB but with security coding to prevent copying. I believe it's in the 6gig band from the FCC numbers. Just like id tags.

 

[Fixbear]

The same reason you have to have the phone in the drivers seat to marry the Ford pass. It's not using BT at that point but UWB with something like STS. Have to go back to Ford Patents about 10 years ago. But they are hard to find. It was a real pain to get them activated back in spring of 2021. Even the dealers trained sales person had to do it more than once. One key is that I-phones before 8 do not have the chip necessary for it.
The car has more than one radio system working.

 

[Brons2]

I don't know if there is a difference as the production run goes on but our new 23 that we took home 3 days ago is not that sensitive. It will lock the car about 10-15 feet away and I have to get pretty close for it to unlock.

 

[dallowev]

I just wish the key fob wasn't so large. I'd be inclined to use it more if it was slimmer.

 

[RWG]

Well, after a little research about Key Fobs and PAAK. It seems there is more to the story.

The old style Key Fobs we all remember were analog devices using 315 MHz and "rolling code" technology to minimize security risks. New generation vehicles use Low Energy Bluetooth at a frequency of 2.5 GHz and the transmission of data is digital. This allows the auto manufactures to introduce PAAK (Smart Phone) entry features. However, the as technology advances for auto manufactrues it also advances for thieves. Therefore security protocols for old or new style key Fobs can be, and occasionally are, compromised and there is no guarantee of complete security. I have noticed the old style key fobs had much longer range than my new style Mach E key fob. I suppose it is a combination of signal strength and radio frequency. I was taught that low frequency networks could pass through solid objects better than high frequency wavelengths. However high frequency systems can move more digital data and quicker than analog low frequency systems. After all, Bluetooth technology was originally developed to allow wireless communication between digital devices in the office and it has since been adopted for other purposes. I know that in the past, on one of my older cars, I could use my key fob and find my car easier ( even on different parking lot levels) than the new bluetooth key fob. A bluetooth system is pretty much "line of sight within limited range" or it doesn't work. However, I can access the vehicle with my Smart Phone, through the cellular network just about anytime or place I want.

Bottom line: Never assume you are totally safe and that your preventative actions make your stuff impenetrable. Just be self aware and try to do the best you can. If we all obsess, worry about every security risk, it will drive all of us nuts.

PS: Turning off your cell phone Bluetooth probably minimizes a "man in the middle attack" but it does not totally mitigate risk. The vehicle is still broadcasting bluetooth, Wifi and cellular networks and advanced hackers may be able to manipulate the system to gain access. Also, the walk away lock perhaps helps minimize security risks in the immediate area, short term, but remember, if a hacker has your Ford Pass credentials, he can access your system remotely anytime your vehicle ATT cellular system is engaged and that network seems to be ubiquitous in the North America and it is always on.

Good luck to all and be careful.

 

[available_username2]

Imagine if the problem with Paak was that it worked too well. Hahahahahaha . That's the funniest thing I've heard this year.

 

[HuntingPudel]

Summary- PAAK doesn’t work for me unless I open the FordPass up on my phone.

Just having the phone near the car doesn’t do anything. iPhone 13.

I always get an alert when I close the FP app:

I force-closed the FP app on my phone on Monday morning. I have been getting into and driving the car with it closed since then. Not sure if it’s my watch doing it or if the phone is still functioning with the app closed. I’m going to leave the watch inside this weekend to see. ?‍?

EDIT: Location services are set to Always. I just changed that to While Using. Will see if I am locked out when I leave work. ??

 

[garyd9]

Well, after a little research about Key Fobs and PAAK. It seems there is more to the story.

The old style Key Fobs we all remember were analog devices using 315 MHz and "rolling code" technology to minimize security risks. New generation vehicles use Low Energy Bluetooth at a frequency of 2.5 GHz and the transmission of data is digital. This allows the auto manufactures to introduce PAAK (Smart Phone) entry features.

...

(Source: https://fcc.report/FCC-ID/M3N-A2C931423/2834236)

The fobs for the Mach-E are 315MHz transmitters. (I'm only replying with this because the above post might be misinterpreted to suggest that the fobs for the mach-e are 2.5Ghz.)

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