PA to stary an annual “road user fee” to EV owners

[sockmeister]

Why do you want to spend all this money building new systems to accommodate 1/2 of 1 percent of vehicles?

What money? As was stated earlier, mileage is already reported at registration (and also reported for state inspections, which are mandatory). When registering your vehicle online, you'd simply enter the mileage and the fee would be calculated accordingly at checkout. This could work for every single car, not just EVs.

And also, we both know that EVs won't be 1% of vehicles in the state for very long. This is future proofed.

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[sockmeister]

I should add that lying about mileage at registration is odometer fraud and discrepancies will be caught, especially since annual state inspections are also reported

 

[garyd9]

And also, we both know that EVs won't be 1% of vehicles in the state for very long. This is future proofed.

Maybe.. maybe not. With all the EV incentives disappearing, and with this new EV-tax, a lot of people who would have otherwise purchased an EV will have second thoughts.

Buying an EV used to be a major money saver in the long run. Now... not so much. With this new $250/year thing, I'm getting pretty close to the cost of a 30mi/gal gas car.

 

[Space_Pony]

Indiana is a drive-through state and there has been a debate on how to collect taxes on out of state traffic passing through. I assume they will or do collect road taxes on DCFC use.

 

[sockmeister]

Maybe.. maybe not. With all the EV incentives disappearing, and with this new EV-tax, a lot of people who would have otherwise purchased an EV will have second thoughts.

Buying an EV used to be a major money saver in the long run. Now... not so much. With this new $250/year thing, I'm getting pretty close to the cost of a 30mi/gal gas car.

Well, not for me. At 11,000 miles per year, and 30 mpg, along with a $3.50/gal gas price, that amounts to $1,283 / year in gasoline. Plus an annual oil change, figure $50 average. So I'm still saving around $1100 / year just in fuel and oil.

Edit: forgot to subtract EV fuel costs. With electricity I'm paying around 6 cents per kwh to charge at overnight and assuming 3.0mi/kWh, it's about $220 in electricity per year. I took some liberties, so I'll call it $300.
So, I'm still saving about $800/year in fuel.

 

[ack154]

Indiana is a drive-through state and there has been a debate on how to collect taxes on out of state traffic passing through. I assume they will or do collect road taxes on DCFC use.

My first thought here is "that's ridiculous" but it's actually an interesting point about road tax outside of your car's registered state.

Any ICE cars driving through the state (any state) would pay "taxes" to use those roads by filling up with fuel in that state (potentially, obviously not everyone driving through different states stops at every state to fill up). EVs stopping to charge in a state generally don't pay anything.

I think the real unfortunate thing is that eventually all of the states are just going to tax everything and once again, everything becomes more expensive for everyone. And then some will divert that new tax income to other things and it won't even go towards the roads and infrastructure that it would be intended for.

 

[garyd9]

Well, not for me. At 11,000 miles per year, and 30 mpg, along with a $3.50/gal gas price, that amounts to $1,283 / year in gasoline. Plus an annual oil change, figure $50 average. So I'm still saving around $1100 / year just in fuel and oil.

Edit: forgot to subtract EV fuel costs. With electricity I'm paying around 6 cents per kwh to charge at overnight and assuming 3.0mi/kWh, it's about $220 in electricity per year. I took some liberties, so I'll call it $300.
So, I'm still saving about $800/year in fuel.

This is a spreadsheet I originally set up a few years ago when I traded a RAV4 hybrid for an EV. I've updated it with current gas prices, electricity charges (which include transmission charges and approx taxes), and added the "other annual" for the new PA EV tax.

At 10k miles/year, I'm still ahead, but this spreadsheet doesn't take into account the price difference between a ICE or Hybrid vs a BEV.

What might be interesting is adding a PHEV to this table. A good PHEV would give me enough battery to get to/from work purely on electricity, but I'd only pay 25% of the EV Tax. Of course, then I'd be paying $150/year more for oil changes and emissions inspections.

 

[dtbaker61]

Maybe.. maybe not. With all the EV incentives disappearing, and with this new EV-tax, a lot of people who would have otherwise purchased an EV will have second thoughts.

Buying an EV used to be a major money saver in the long run. Now... not so much. With this new $250/year thing, I'm getting pretty close to the cost of a 30mi/gal gas car.

? I don't think so.... at least not operational costs.
what does 10 kWhr of electricity cost you?
what does a gallon of gas cost you?

The $200-$250 /yr 'use' tax just is an attempt to replace the missing revenue for roads from lack of gas tax collected. I understand it's the best we can do transitionally, and it's based on average miles expected and calculated....

My point is that it would be MORE accurate and fair to base annual 'use' tax for ALL vehicles on actual weight and actual miles driven regardless of fuel type.... and eliminate 'gas tax'. But that will require Legislation at both the State and Federal levels.

 

[sockmeister]

This is a spreadsheet I originally set up a few years ago when I traded a RAV4 hybrid for an EV. I've updated it with current gas prices, electricity charges (which include transmission charges and approx taxes), and added the "other annual" for the new PA EV tax.

At 10k miles/year, I'm still ahead, but this spreadsheet doesn't take into account the price difference between a ICE or Hybrid vs a BEV.

What might be interesting is adding a PHEV to this table. A good PHEV would give me enough battery to get to/from work purely on electricity, but I'd only pay 25% of the EV Tax. Of course, then I'd be paying $150/year more for oil changes and emissions inspections.

I like the details you've captured here. But that electricity price is astronomical ?. Do they offer time-of-use?

If we really wanted to get detailed, we could add in other potential maintenance costs of an ICE car, such as transmission or differential fluid changes, coolant flushes, increased brake wear, etc, over the entire lifetime of ownership of each car.

 

[garyd9]

? I don't think so.... at least not operational costs.
what does 10 kWhr of electricity cost you?
what does a gallon of gas cost you?

See above...

My point is that the incentives are becoming less. Not that they've gone away. There are absolutely some people who were willing to "go EV" based only on the money they would be saving, and those people might have second thoughts when they're saving less.

I like the details you've captured here. But that electricity price is astronomical ?. Do they offer time-of-use?

No, and going with a third party electricity provider would actually cost me much more money in the summer (with a slight drop in the winter.) Keep in mind that the number is the actual total cost per kWh. It includes transmission, taxes, etc. I calculated it with the simple formula of "(total electricity bill) / (number of kWh used) and I update it every 6 months when the rate changes.

If we really wanted to get detailed, we could add in other potential maintenance costs of an ICE car, such as transmission or differential fluid changes, coolant flushes, increased brake wear, etc, over the entire lifetime of ownership of each car.

I considered that when I made the sheet, but decided that those things are a wash. Brake fluid, differential fluids, coolants... these are things needed by both ICE and EV cars. There was just a thread yesterday about someone being charged over $1k for brake and diff fluid changes at 90k on their mach-e...

 

[dtbaker61]

Only 15 states have annual or biannual safety inspections (just 30%). ALL states collect both state and federal gasoline taxes. So 35 states would need to create from scratch a state safety inspection program. Your suggestion may meet a bit of backlash in those states where citizens don't have to have their car safety inspected every year or every two years. It's a complete effing PITA too.

And again, the Fed loses out on its $18.4/gal. gas tax. I have not read where a state's EV road use tax includes the Federal tax component. More of a problem is collection. Annual inspection means annual collection of tax revenues rather than at the point of sale. States would then need to borrow money for operating budgets because the revenue is delayed.

The gas tax based on number of gallons purchased makes the most sense. It's easy and collected at the point of sale. It counts for weight as a factor of consumption. An EV road use tax based on averages, or statistics is nearly as fair. Virginia's technique is very fair, it gives the option of direct reporting or tax based on statistics.

fair collection of revenue for roads is one part of my suggested NATIONAL change in how annual registration fees can be used to collect 'fairly' regardless of fuel type as we transition from 99% gasoline/diesel to other fuels.

Initially, especially in places that do not have annual safety/emission inspections presently, a flat 'use fee' based on average mileage, and actual vehicle weight could be implemented across the board and the Fed/State gas tax could be taken off the pump price for gasoline/diesel. ICE drivers driving 'average' number of miles would pay the same annually.

If we ever get to the point where actual miles driven are recorded and used to calculate annual registration fees, people that drive fewer miles would have lower fee, and possibly lower insurance costs if insurance companies adjust rates by the mile as part of their calculations.

Places that do NOT have emissions/safety inspections probably *should*, don't you think? But yes, there is HUGE pushback from people that have vehicles that KNOW they will fail inspections for safety, emissions, or noise..... but the bulk of the population would love to get junkers, tuner exhausts, and 'coal rolling' diesels cleaned up.

For example, New Mexico has a long way to go.... only one county requires annual emission inspections, other counties don't have ANY inspections. But, I'm willing to pay my fair share of a 'use' tax if it goes to build and maintain roads.

 

[sean7512]

I used to live in MD. Compared to PA roads, driving in MD is like floating on air.

In PA, they don’t even re-pave bad roads. They do this thing where they spray oil on the road, and then cover it with gravel. It causes all kinds of damage to cars, but doesn't actually FIX anything. Oh, and we have the second highest gas tax in the nation supposedly to maintain the roads.

It's horrible, isn't it? Used to live in VA just outside of DC and those were some nice roads. VA also didn't use salt when we first moved there in 2009, but after the 2010 blizzard, they relented and started using salt.

 

[dtbaker61]

I'd rather pay a statistics based road use tax rather than one based on actal data. The last thing I want is for the government, state or federal, having a record of every trip I take. It's bad enough what the insurance companies are doing. All my cars are older models that do not have telemetry data nor capability to transmit it. My newest vehicle is a 2022, but I have the connectivity turned off (hopefully not just a software ruse).

I hate to tell you, but Ford has data on every mile, and they are already selling that data. Ford can tell miles, speed, miles at speed over posted limits, etc, etc. The only way to cut that would be to de-power the onboard modem and stop using FordPass, AndroidAuto, Navigation, and any other connected services.

What I am suggesting is LESS invasive as it is just an annual total miles driven for ALL vehicles.

 

[garyd9]

I'd rather pay a statistics based road use tax rather than one based on actal data. The last thing I want is for the government, state or federal, having a record of every trip I take.

I don't think anyone suggested anyone having a record of every trip you take. (Did I miss that?) It seemed like the suggestion is only that the total number of miles you've driven over the course of a year is what's used. No one would know if those 10k miles were used to drive to/from work, or for a vacation, or to a chicken farm.

In many states, this data is ALREADY reported to the state in yearly registrations or inspections. (I'm required to submit my odometer reading every time I renew my registration, and that info is also reported when I get a safety inspection.)

 

[Mach1E]

Here’s how they’re paying “double taxes” under your scenario:
If I own an Excursion, I’d still be paying road taxes every time I went to Wawa to buy gas. Additionally, a portion of the taxes on my electric bill would go to road taxes, necessitating a total increase in my electric taxes. So, you are proposing that 8.8M vehicles subsidize 47K vehicles twice.

That’s not “double tax.”

The Excursion driver would be paying the identical amount of taxes they are now.

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