NHTSA opens probe into BlueCruise

[ChehRob]

Just a slightly different take on this from an 85 year old (in the last 45-50 years I have avoided all fender benders, and never been in a serious accident - yes luck, but also a cautious driver). What I worry about is a momentary loss of situational awareness. The best ADAS, and they are getting better, also works at that awareness. The chance of both of 'us' failing at the same time is statistically a lot less than one or the other of us losing awareness. I think, using it as I do, greatly reduces my chance of getting in an accident.

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[superdave80]

I think statistics indicate that we die on the road in similar numbers annually, regardless of the obvious advancements in "safety" over the last 5 decades.

The rate of driving fatalities has dropped by about 50%-100% over the last five decades. The exact drop will depend on if you look at deaths per miles driven or per capita deaths.

 

[Vulnox]

Much like if you see someone sues someone for whatever doesn't mean the person being sued did anything wrong, it's silly to jump too far into worrying about an investigation into BlueCruise. In both cases it's the system working as it should. One party believes they are wronged and uses the systems in place to determine if the facts agree.

It may well be that BlueCruise didn't properly avoid the situation in the two incidents, but Ford being Ford has always called BlueCruise a driver assistant and not replacement. I have intervened in cases where I was in adaptive cruise over the years and on the highway and approached a traffic jam and had to brake before the system did because the range of the radar isn't infinite.

If you were on BC and saw a line of stopped cars ahead and just closed your eyes confident in the system to handle the rest then you were no longer the driver, so BlueCruise is no longer a driver assistant. The car at that point just has a passenger and the failure wasn't on the car. If the car had no lights and it was at night, then automated driving or driver a crash was bound to happen.

As for Elon, he sucks big time and in countless ways, but indicating he would have anything to do with this just makes legitimate arguments against that idiot more difficult, because as is already seen on this thread people will just dismiss it as Elon hating as if there isn't a mountain of real life reasons he is the worst.

Trump wasn't President for any of the crashes or the NTSB probe, and Ford themselves reported the incident to the NHTSA as they are legally required to do. Any mention of Trump or Elon in what initiated this investigation is FUD. And again, I say that as someone that haaaaates both of those individuals, but throwing undue accusations their way just dulls the impact of pointing out legitimate issues.

Lastly, the NHTSA is hardly ignoring Tesla.
"Since 2016, NHTSA has opened more 40 Tesla special crash investigations in cases where driver systems were suspected of being used, with 23 crash deaths reported to date. "

 

[ryannix123]

Tesla has never complied with mandatory reporting of accidents using autonomous features and DOGE has said it will likely eliminate that department anyways. Highways will be MadMax soon.

Highways are already MadMax today, thanks to the now-former administration. Cops rarely want to pull people over for brazenly dangerous driving. This isn't a technical problem; it's a people problem.

"The CDC and NHTSA reported that traffic fatalities increased significantly in 2020 and 2021, despite reduced driving during the pandemic. In 2021, there were approximately 42,915 traffic fatalities in the US, which was the highest number in 16 years and a 10.5% increase from 2020.

For 2022, there was a small decline, with about 42,795 fatalities reported - roughly a 0.3% decrease from 2021."

 

[Vulnox]

Highways are already MadMax today, thanks to the now-former administration. Cops rarely want to pull people over for brazenly dangerous driving. This isn't a technical problem; it's a people problem.

"The CDC and NHTSA reported that traffic fatalities increased significantly in 2020 and 2021, despite reduced driving during the pandemic. In 2021, there were approximately 42,915 traffic fatalities in the US, which was the highest number in 16 years and a 10.5% increase from 2020.

For 2022, there was a small decline, with about 42,795 fatalities reported - roughly a 0.3% decrease from 2021."

Yet your quote indicates that what you're saying is more nonsense. Correlation doesn't equal causation, and not to blow your mind here, but the "now-former administration" wasn't the administration in 2020. Biden wasn't sworn in until January 20th 2021. You would think someone posting this on the day of the new inauguration would be able to do 2025-4 and realize that's a bigger number than 2020.

You further post that 2022 was a decline from 2021.

The more likely cause since Biden doesn't control local police jurisdictions is that people coming out of initial covid lockdowns and facing more open highways due to more people working at home were driving at higher average speeds resulting in more frequent fatal collisions. Then in 2022 things calmed back down as more people were back on the road and traffic increased, making excessive speeding more difficult.

Even that is just speculation, but it makes a lot more sense to the real world than what you said.

 

[SonicBlue]

According to the NHTSA, in both fatal collisions, the Ford Mustang Mach-E vehicle was traveling over 70 mph on a highway during nighttime lighting conditions on BlueCruise mode when it collided with a stationary vehicle.

The agency said these vehicles seem to have system limitations relating to the detection of stationary vehicles while traveling at highway speeds and in nighttime lighting.

NHTSA said it will further investigate these limitations and evaluate drivers' ability to respond to scenarios that exceed such limitations.

So. Before this thread spins out of control, let’s just set this straight:

This same exact collision could have happened to ANY CAR USING BASIC CRUISE CONTROL. Which means that BlueCruise did not cause the collision.

The only opposing argument I can think of is that BlueCruise is somehow tricking people into believing their car will stop for stationary objects. Okkkkayyy… but that seams like a stretch. How is Ford responsible for idiots not knowing how their tech works? And how does this differ from ACC in any myriad number of other makes/models?

The adaptive cruise sensors don’t work on stationary objects - whether Ford of anyone else - and you wouldn’t want it to!!! If it did, just imagine all the phantom braking that would occur due to the sensor being tricked by a shadow or a barrier off to the side of a curve, etc.

I hope this clarifies the issue. Let’s stay focused.

 

[RickMachE]

So. Before this thread spins out of control, let’s just set this straight:

This same exact collision could have happened to ANY CAR USING BASIC CRUISE CONTROL. Which means that BlueCruise did not cause the collision.

The only opposing argument I can think of is that BlueCruise is somehow tricking people into believing their car will stop for stationary objects. Okkkkayyy… but that seams like a stretch. How is Ford responsible for idiots not knowing how their tech works? And how does this differ from ACC in any myriad number of other makes/models?

The adaptive cruise sensors don’t work on stationary objects - whether Ford of anyone else - and you wouldn’t want it to!!! If it did, just imagine all the phantom braking that would occur due to the sensor being tricked by a shadow or a barrier off to the side of a curve, etc.

I hope this clarifies the issue. Let’s stay focused.

I was merely quoting what the NHTSA wrote, and highlighting what they see as the issue.

Yes, anyone who thinks the car is going to stop for a vehicle parked on the highway clearly didn't read the manual and should not be driving a Mach-E, Lightning, or similarly equipped vehicle.

 

[RickMachE]

@ryannix123, no politics here. Besides, equating traffic fatalities with federal government is simply ridiculous.

 

[SonicBlue]

I was merely quoting what the NHTSA wrote, and highlighting what they see as the issue.

Yes, anyone who thinks the car is going to stop for a vehicle parked on the highway clearly didn't read the manual and should not be driving a Mach-E, Lightning, or similarly equipped vehicle.

No, it’s much dumber than that. It isn’t simply a matter of not understanding the tech. Again, this collision could have happened and probably does happen thousands of times a year with any car using standard cruise control! And we wouldn’t want the tech to try detecting stationary objects, because that would lead to a spate of rear-end collisions due to phantom braking.

This inquiry is ASININE and I hope that Ford doesn’t mince words with how stupid it is.

 

[Snakebitten]

So. Before this thread spins out of control, let’s just set this straight:

What does spin out of control mean around here? ?

Of the various automotive forums I frequent, this one is the poster child of spin. It's still a great forum, for me, for many reasons. But that's certainly not one of them.

 

[SonicBlue]

I’ve had a situation with an emergency vehicle stopped mostly in the left lane of a beltway. Would the car have adapted? I don’t know.

Nope. It wouldn’t have. And you wouldn’t want it to. Unless you also want your car phantom braking at shadows and barriers on curves.

Maybe one day ACC will be sophisticated enough to not phantom brake, but that’s not here yet, so not stopping for stationary objects is the compromise.

 

[moog]

Sounds like pilot error rather than system error.

Read your manual.

DRIVE your car at all times and be aware!

 

[Ford_orr]

Yet your quote indicates that what you're saying is more nonsense. Correlation doesn't equal causation, and not to blow your mind here, but the "now-former administration" wasn't the administration in 2020. Biden wasn't sworn in until January 20th 2021. You would think someone posting this on the day of the new inauguration would be able to do 2025-4 and realize that's a bigger number than 2020.

You further post that 2022 was a decline from 2021.

The more likely cause since Biden doesn't control local police jurisdictions is that people coming out of initial covid lockdowns and facing more open highways due to more people working at home were driving at higher average speeds resulting in more frequent fatal collisions. Then in 2022 things calmed back down as more people were back on the road and traffic increased, making excessive speeding more difficult.

Even that is just speculation, but it makes a lot more sense to the real world than what you said.

If I remember correctly, the data showed there were less total accidents, but more fatal accidents - all due to the excessive speeds.

Being an Angeleno for almost 50 years, in 2020, the 405, 110 and 105 freeways looked like desolate empty wastelands with cars occasionally zooming by at speeds easily over 100. I rarely dabbled in those speeds, but was definitely "above average" most of the time.

And as you clearly and obviously point out, this happened in 2020, during the orange crouton's administration, not Biden. And not that either would have anything to do with it regardless.

 

[ryannix123]

Yet your quote indicates that what you're saying is more nonsense. Correlation doesn't equal causation, and not to blow your mind here, but the "now-former administration" wasn't the administration in 2020. Biden wasn't sworn in until January 20th 2021. You would think someone posting this on the day of the new inauguration would be able to do 2025-4 and realize that's a bigger number than 2020.

You further post that 2022 was a decline from 2021.

The more likely cause since Biden doesn't control local police jurisdictions is that people coming out of initial covid lockdowns and facing more open highways due to more people working at home were driving at higher average speeds resulting in more frequent fatal collisions. Then in 2022 things calmed back down as more people were back on the road and traffic increased, making excessive speeding more difficult.

Even that is just speculation, but it makes a lot more sense to the real world than what you said.

You're specula

Yet your quote indicates that what you're saying is more nonsense. Correlation doesn't equal causation, and not to blow your mind here, but the "now-former administration" wasn't the administration in 2020. Biden wasn't sworn in until January 20th 2021. You would think someone posting this on the day of the new inauguration would be able to do 2025-4 and realize that's a bigger number than 2020.

You further post that 2022 was a decline from 2021.

The more likely cause since Biden doesn't control local police jurisdictions is that people coming out of initial covid lockdowns and facing more open highways due to more people working at home were driving at higher average speeds resulting in more frequent fatal collisions. Then in 2022 things calmed back down as more people were back on the road and traffic increased, making excessive speeding more difficult.

Even that is just speculation, but it makes a lot more sense to the real world than what you said.

Maybe because

If I remember correctly, the data showed there were less total accidents, but more fatal accidents - all due to the excessive speeds.

Being an Angeleno for almost 50 years, in 2020, the 405, 110 and 105 freeways looked like desolate empty wastelands with cars occasionally zooming by at speeds easily over 100. I rarely dabbled in those speeds, but was definitely "above average" most of the time.

And as you clearly and obviously point out, this happened in 2020, during the orange crouton's administration, not Biden. And not that either would have anything to do with it regardless.

Right, it's all Trump's fault.

I wonder what happened in the U.S. around mid-2020? It's a mystery!

According to the CDC:

2012-2015 saw relatively stable numbers, averaging around 32,000-33,000 deaths annually.

There was an uptick in 2015-2016, with fatalities increasing to approximately 37,500 in 2016.

2017-2019 showed slight decreases each year:

• 2017: ~37,100 deaths
• 2018: ~36,600 deaths
• 2019: ~36,096 deaths

2020 marked a significant shift despite reduced traffic during the pandemic, with approximately 38,824 deaths - an increase of about 7.2% from 2019.

2021 saw another major increase to 42,915 deaths - the highest number in 16 years.
2022 showed a slight decrease to 42,795 deaths.

 

[ChehRob]

Dangerous speeding will not stop until it is camera enforced. The political opposition to that will likely prevent using it.

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