Battery Technology vs. Winter

dbsb3233

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My question as we ALL know I am a novice.
Audi batteries are the best. Someone stated Ford wanted to keep price affordable. One more thing to factor in is that Ford is also spending $11 Billion to work with EA as well. Is it at all possible that Ford will do with Batteries what Audi does and part of that $11B is factored in?? Remember Ford on the first video stayed that ALL car manufacturers lose money on EV however Ford says they will make a profit on every car. The only way this can seriously occur is massive sales. In order to get past the first year people will be looking at batteries. In short they HAVE to get it right. Thoughts anyone???
I think the general consensus is that Tesla has the best batteries. They've been able to achieve better energy density (more power in less weight), which has given them an edge on range.

Audi uses the same batteries as the Mach-e. In fact, they're sourced from the exact same LG Chem plant in Poland that Ford is using for the Mach-e (and the upcoming Transit van). That's the actual battery cells though. From there, each manufacturer develops their own battery PACKS to house them, cool/heat them, and manage their charging. That's where the differences exist.

As for the Mach-e (or any other BEV) being profitable, that's a complicated issue. The line that says "all manufacturers lose money on EVs" was probably true in the past, but that was when batteries were grossly expensive, and when there just wasn't much public demand for them. Both of those factors are changing fast. Battery costs (while still expensive) have come down a lot and are expected to keep coming down quite a bit more due to economies of scale. They've also improved energy density and charging times so much that they can now achieve the type of ranges (200+ miles) that interest a lot more consumers. Few people wanted a 75 mile car, but 250 is a game-changer. That allows some serious sales volumes to occur, which can enable profitability.
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I don't believe it's on 100% on for the whole drive. It will cycle on and off, I would say 50% of the time max unless it's extremely cold. Total hit on the model 3 should be more like 8 miles per hour max. When preheating, it'll use 4%-5% per hour.

Yes, from my experience keeping the battery warm drains the most energy at first, and the added wind resistance really affect range.
 

mark360

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Yeah, I guess all I'm getting at is the energy savings once up to speed and moving will be very negligible the more I think about it. When it's super cold the heat pump won't be able to catch up, electric motors don't get near as hot as an ICE. Electric motor max gets up to 200F-250F under heavy load. The colder it is outside the colder that motor will be. It has to use the motor heat to heat the battery as well.
 

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My take is it's just vaporware and why Tesla hasn't put it on any other car to my knowledge at least. I predict very negligible range increase, although I'm not the expert here. They had to put it on for a reason so we will see.
 

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I thought a heat pump was a reverse air conditioner. So wouldn’t it make sense that the AC would run. A heat pump transfers heat from one place to another. In the south they have homes with heat pumps that take heat from the house and dump it outside in the summer. Then in the winter the heat pump reverses the flow to bring in heat from the outside.
 


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What has happened to this forum? The same couple "engineers" dissing competitors. Seems like many threads are overrun with this. We used to laugh at those other fanboys. This forum is now the same. Disappointing. Ignore if it's just me.
 

eastern refugee

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What has happened to this forum? The same couple "engineers" dissing competitors. Seems like many threads are overrun with this. We used to laugh at those other fanboys. This forum is now the same. Disappointing. Ignore if it's just me.
Yes there are a LOT of engineers but I read and learn. When I get confused which is often I state that and many explain it in English. I do NOT want a forum where EVERYONE agrees. Disagreement increases the learning g experience. Simple agreement gets you zip. Zero learning. Zero knowledge. Disagreement makes you rethink what you originally thought was right.

on a side note this forum is ALWAYS professional. Zero negative personal attacks. Difference in options is awesome. Personal attacks are pure crap.
 

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No heat pump? No battery heater? No problem! Rivian has a solution that maybe Ford will be able to "use":

"In extremely cold conditions we use some battery energy to keep the cells in our battery above 14°F to provide controlled vehicle performance. Some EVs have electrical heaters to heat the battery up, which is another component — more cost, more mass and a drain on electrical supply. Instead, we’re using our inverter and motor to generate heat — even while stationary our traction system can generate substantial heat for the battery. And we use that heat to warm the battery to the point where it can deliver full performance. Our battery is uniquely designed to operate in super cold conditions, all the way down to an ambient temp of -40°F."
Laura Controls Integration Engineer---Rivian


Our batteries use an axial cooling method via a central cold plate — a unique design feature of our pack — which is a highly efficient way to both heat and cool the battery. This system uses the minimum amount of energy possible to keep the cells at their optimum temperature, which is particularly important if the vehicle has been unplugged in extremely cold conditions.

Our cold soak tests are designed to replicate an R1 parked outside overnight, which is when batteries can reach their coldest and need to be warmed. In ideal conditions, an R1 can add 25 miles of range per hour when plugged into a home AC charger. At 0° F, because you’re using some of the charge current to warm the battery, you’ll get less charge when you first plug in — the charge rate on a home AC charger is approximately halved for the first hour, then returns to its maximum charge rate of 25 miles per hour after that.

Rivian tested their vehicles at Baudette, MN-where a winter testing center exists on an old Air Force base. Location is almost on the Canadian-USA border.
read more: Cold Weather Testing by Rivian - Rivian Stories
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