Dealers getting in the way

[kennethjk]

I do have to say the dealer I have been working with is a straight shooter. They told me up front no ADM. no problem with X Plan and they will offered me more for my Macan than the Porsche dealer will.

25 years ago, the last time I bought a Ford, this dealers service department fixed a problem for $88 when a local service shop said it would be $1,800. I didn’t buy the car from them. Some places are good and others are not.

But the ones that aren’t are just a horrible experience.

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[Olds442]

if i encounter dealership shenanigans, i'll just cancel and wait out the big rush.

i really don't expect any BS from Arlington Heights Ford though.

 

[Texas-E]

My experience has been better with big city high volume dealers than with the small town ones.

The smaller the dealer, the more I get the 1980s “used car salesman” experience.

The bigger, the easier/better. Price is marked low and as advertised online. No issues scheduling test drive, no hard sell on add ons. Fair offer for trade, done deal.

The model isn’t broken, they just need to fix the culture of the customer service.

I think you have probably experienced two different employee compensation models for sales (I have the same experience). I think most bigger dealers have shifted, and the smaller ones might be stuck in a commission model that makes the car salesperson stereotype live on. My best experiences have been where the salesperson's comp isn't heavily tied to a percentage of profit on a specific vehicle. I've also had a much better experience dealing with internet salespeople than a cold walk-in.

I'm not picking on you, so PLEASE don't take it that way. How do you think they fix the culture of customer service? As long as dealerships are franchises, the tone can be different for each dealer. Sure, we can fill out nasty surveys, but other than a bait and switch on a direct order for a person, those dealers that add markups are just flexing with demand. The individual salesperson has zero opportunity to do anything about that.

 

[Brofessional]

There are lots of reasons people buy a particular car at a particular time. One of my reasons was to maximize the trade on my Highlander and waiting until a newly-ordered GT gets built and delivered means another 6 mos of mileage and potential CARFAX hits. So, I paid some ADM on an orphaned GT. If that makes me Rube, I’m a very happy Rube now driving a really nice BEV. !

You shouldn't feel bad. He's been fairly consistently condescending on here since day 1.

The whole idea that "MSRP" is some magic number that never paying above makes you "smart" is a salesman's dream. It's why people like him walk away from a deal paying far more than market demand and feel great about it, because it's "less than MSRP."

We have a better understanding of market demand for the Mach E than most cars for sale at this point. HUGE interest and enthusiasm, an active forum, limited availability, and tons of people shopping around means we have a very accurate estimate of what these cars are worth.

 

[AlbanyIan]

You shouldn't feel bad. He's been fairly consistently condescending on here since day 1.

The whole idea that "MSRP" is some magic number that never paying above makes you "smart" is a salesman's dream. It's why people like him walk away from a deal paying far more than market demand and feel great about it even though it's less than MSRP.

We have a better understanding of market demand for the Mach E than most cars for sale at this point. HUGE interest and enthusiasm, an active forum, limited availability, and tons of people shopping around means we have a very accurate estimate of what these cars are worth.

And in the end, what the vehicles are worth is what someone is willing to pay. Their reasons may be good, practical, whimsical, etc. I’d say as long as you don’t do something stupid like sell your first child to afford one, it’s hard to assume the buyer got a bad deal, swindled, was naive, or whatever.

 

[MachTee]

Sounds like that’s because the “Tesla model” isn’t really that different. They’re just copying what car dealers have done for decades. Only difference is who owns the dealer?

I don’t thing this is a model issue, sounds more like a customer service issue.

My experience has been better with big city high volume dealers than with the small town ones.

The smaller the dealer, the more I get the 1980s “used car salesman” experience.

The bigger, the easier/better. Price is marked low and as advertised online. No issues scheduling test drive, no hard sell on add ons. Fair offer for trade, done deal.

The model isn’t broken, they just need to fix the culture of the customer service.

In my experience, Tesla is just like any other car dealers, except with Tesla you have no choice but to just take it if you're dead set on the brand. In normal market condition, I've gotten thousands of dollars off sticker price on every single new vehicle I've ever purchased. I paid full sticker price for a 2018 model 3, $60k even, and then they kept lowering the price as the federal tax credit began to phase out. The same $60k car was down to a low of $47k.

Fast forward couple years later, right before the pandemic, I was checking to see what Tesla would give to trade my 3 to a Y, just kicking tires. It was $34.5K. About 6 months later when Tesla updated the 3's interior and included a heat pump, I checked again on trade. I was a bit surprised to have gotten the same trade offer, 6mos and ~6000 miles later. Foolishly I accepted the offer and ordered the new model 3. Tesla's trade in quote is only valid for 30 days and/or 1000 miles. On day 31 they asked me to resubmit. I was still within the 1000 miles of the original quote, but they still lowered my trade by $2000. I canceled the order right away and I lost the $100 "order fee".

Careful what you wish for regarding ripping out the dealership model. You will then have no choice but to take it however the manufacturer decides to give it to you. I will admit that it was very easy when I picked up the model 3. Just a few simple e-signatures and none of that BS from your typical dealer. At the same time, I asked the delivery rep a question. He directed me to look it up on Tesla website They really don't want to talk to you after you buy the car. I absolutely positively could not get a hold of anybody over the phone or email. I kept getting directed to schedule an appointment from the app.

 

[HuntingPudel]

The only things ADM payers have in common are this:

Plenty of money
And
Lack of patience

Paying ADM is a choice for people who want to “skip the line.” Want to order a Mach E and pay MSRP? Wait 6 months.

Want one now? Pay ADM.

And yes, I know there are some lucky few that happen upon a cancelled order and pay msrp, but you gotta be lucky or patient.

I would add that there are some people out there who just don’t realize that another dealer in their area might not be charging ADM. Some people might just go to the closest dealer because they just don’t know. ?‍

 

[Mach1E]

I think you have probably experienced two different employee compensation models for sales (I have the same experience). I think most bigger dealers have shifted, and the smaller ones might be stuck in a commission model that makes the car salesperson stereotype live on. My best experiences have been where the salesperson's comp isn't heavily tied to a percentage of profit on a specific vehicle. I've also had a much better experience dealing with internet salespeople than a cold walk-in.

I'm not picking on you, so PLEASE don't take it that way. How do you think they fix the culture of customer service? As long as dealerships are franchises, the tone can be different for each dealer. Sure, we can fill out nasty surveys, but other than a bait and switch on a direct order for a person, those dealers that add markups are just flexing with demand. The individual salesperson has zero opportunity to do anything about that.

How to fix the culture? Great question.

I think what you mentioned about compensation would certainly go a long way.

How else? Ford is kinda doing it with the Mach E. Order online, set pricing etc.

Downside? It involves not getting “a deal” and not being able to walk in, test drive, sign papers and take your car home.

 

[shutterbug]

You shouldn't feel bad. He's been fairly consistently condescending on here since day 1.

Inasmuch as I joined this forum months before you, it's unlikely that you have any idea what I've been doing "since day 1".

The whole idea that "MSRP" is some magic number that never paying above makes you "smart" is a salesman's dream. It's why people like him walk away from a deal paying far more than market demand and feel great about it, because it's "less than MSRP."

IOW, Below MSRP bad, Above MSRP good. MSRP is not magic. It's a point where OEM has determined that they and the dealers will make a reasonable profit, and the customer will get a reasonable value for their money. Tacking additional fee on top of that adds no value to the customer, is pure money grab. Occasionally, ADM makes sense for cars that are in truly limited supply, that are destined to become an instant classic. MME is not one of those. There were (supposedly) 20,000 of them destined for US market this year. Most likely, more will be made next year, and more the year after that.

We have a better understanding of market demand for the Mach E than most cars for sale at this point. HUGE interest and enthusiasm, an active forum, limited availability, and tons of people shopping around means we have a very accurate estimate of what these cars are worth.

Yes we do. According to TrueCar, there is average markup of $2,736 (4.3%) above MSRP on MME GT. That plus about $1,000 for not getting X-Plan pricing. At this time, there is an actual shortage of all cars, so dealers are asking and getting ADM on most cars. And those cars that previously couldn't be sold without substantial incentives are now selling at MSRP or even higher. This will change. Supply chain will recover and OEMs will produce enough cars to meet demand. This time is the first time in my life that there had been an actual shortage of all cars. I doubt it will last.

 

[AlbanyIan]

And those cars that previously couldn't be sold without substantial incentives are now selling at MSRP or even higher. This will change. Supply chain will recover and OEMs will produce enough cars to meet demand. This time is the first time in my life that there had been an actual shortage of all cars. I doubt it will last.

So according to you, because I didn’t want to wait, and lose money somewhere else on the balance sheet, I’m a Rube. ? (“Rube” - a person from a rural region who lacks polish and sophistication. Funny. I used “yahoo” the other day in this very forum to describe the same type person).

 

[Brofessional]

IOW, Below MSRP bad, Above MSRP good. MSRP is not magic. It's a point where OEM has determined that they and the dealers will make a reasonable profit, and the customer will get a reasonable value for their money. Tacking additional fee on top of that adds no value to the customer, is pure money grab.

WTF is this?

No one said ADM was "good." I pointed out that your claim that you're not a "rube" or a "low information buyer" simply because you haven't paid ADM for a car in your lifetime is just silly. Do you have any idea how many people think just like you do? That they're this special "hard negotiator" because they always get "thousands off" MSRP, all while the dealer makes hundreds to thousands more off of holdback and incentives? There's no way for me to know if you've actually purchased at market value over your lifetime, but your hubris suggests you probably haven't.

Also, ADM adds no value unless of course you consider ease of purchasing locally, enjoyment of the vehicle now vs waiting until supply catches up with demand, and building social capital with the dealer for purchases of limited production vehicles in the future as "valuable."

Not only that, but a fixed ADM is going to equate to more or less "value" dependent on your financial situation. Suggesting that someone is dumb for paying a few thousand dollars that's wholly insignificant to their financial situation in order to drive something they want now instead of 6-12 months from now reeks of jealousy.

And quite honestly, if you haven't paid ADM for some limited production stuff at some point in your life, you're probably not in a great position to lecture others on broader car market principles.

Inasmuch as I joined this forum months before you, it's unlikely that you have any idea what I've been doing "since day 1".

Because there's absolutely no way for me to see what you posted before I joined... ?

 

[shutterbug]

Also, ADM adds no value unless of course you consider ease of purchasing locally, enjoyment of the vehicle now vs waiting until supply catches up with demand, and building social capital with the dealer for purchases of limited production vehicles in the future as "valuable."

The same car purchased with or without ADM has the same value after the purchase. So no added value. You may think that it's valuable to ingratiate yourself with a car salesman (or his boss), but he'll likely be gone by the time of the next purchase (assuming it will even be the same brand). The car won't go any faster, insurance will not take into account any of the extra money paid for it, and when you you sell it, no one is going to care whether you paid ADM on top of it.

Not only that, but a fixed ADM is going to equate to more or less "value" dependent on your financial situation. Suggesting that someone is dumb for paying a few thousand dollars that's wholly insignificant to their financial situation in order to drive something they want now instead of 6-12 months from now reeks of jealousy.

If you want to think that I am jealous, fine. But I've already have my car, so not sure what I'd be jealous of. Also, a few thousand here, a few thousand there, and pretty soon you're talking some real money. Most of us earn our money, don't just have it handed to us. I haven't noticed anyone here say "boy, I wish my dealer charged me ADM".

And quite honestly, if you haven't paid ADM for some limited production stuff at some point in your life, you're probably not in a great position to lecture others on broader car market principles.

Really!? Paying ADM for a car is some sort of achievement? Actually, I conceded elsewhere that paying ADM for truly limited production vehicles is common. I just don't think that MME is that.

 

[Scrannel]

Sounds like that’s because the “Tesla model” isn’t really that different. They’re just copying what car dealers have done for decades. Only difference is who owns the dealer?

I don’t thing this is a model issue, sounds more like a customer service issue.

My experience has been better with big city high volume dealers than with the small town ones.

The smaller the dealer, the more I get the 1980s “used car salesman” experience.

The bigger, the easier/better. Price is marked low and as advertised online. No issues scheduling test drive, no hard sell on add ons. Fair offer for trade, done deal.

The model isn’t broken, they just need to fix the culture of the customer service.

The Dealer model has been broken for years. You probably didn't notice, but in the Tesla version... there is no dealer. Yes, we've had a "good" dealer in the past. And, probably to their surprise, we stuck with them. But there has to be a certain amount of trust. My wife's favorite Range dealer just dropped the trust part. (She's now using an independent). And for the poster who said there was a very long wait for Tesla, that should tell you something. To Ford's credit (and their smarts) they stepped up with a real world EV, and the world has noticed. Not so sure about their dealers.

 

[bp99]

Also, a few thousand here, a few thousand there, and pretty soon you're talking some real money. Most of us earn our money, don't just have it handed to us. I haven't noticed anyone here say "boy, I wish my dealer charged me ADM".

And a few thousand here and there is exactly why I was willing to pay $2000 ADM. It actually saved me money. My other choice was to continue dumping money in to a 15 year-old car while waiting for the car market to return to normal. Money that would have added no value to a decreasing resale value. I needed to put a minimum of $1,800 in to the old car with a potential of up to $12,000 depending on if things in need of repair became critical issues.

I would have preferred not paying ADM, but running the numbers, it was the cheaper option unless I happened to get lucky and have a car without fall in my lap within a month or so. All the cars I looked at before discovering the Mach E had no inventory for at least 8 weeks. Within 200 miles, there were four Mach Es that met my specs (extended range battery) and Ford's inventory search shows cars that are already sold (but not signed for).

It's supply and demand economics. Lots of strange things in the car market right now too. Some people have opportunity to sell their current car for a profit or near original value. The used market could normalize and people lose more resale value in a few months than current ADM costs. There's a changing market from ice to ev and it's hard to know if used ice cars will hold value or plunge in the next couple years. The Biden administration is putting in place policies that is making the price of gas go higher and higher. The cost of driving an ice will be going up. The convergence of many different things along with constrained supply change the economics of purchasing. One needs to take in to account all the variables and hedge their bets on what might happen a year or so down the road.

 

[kennethjk]

And a few thousand here and there is exactly why I was willing to pay $2000 ADM. It actually saved me money. My other choice was to continue dumping money in to a 15 year-old car while waiting for the car market to return to normal. Money that would have added no value to a decreasing resale value. I needed to put a minimum of $1,800 in to the old car with a potential of up to $12,000 depending on if things in need of repair became critical issues.

I would have preferred not paying ADM, but running the numbers, it was the cheaper option unless I happened to get lucky and have a car without fall in my lap within a month or so. All the cars I looked at before discovering the Mach E had no inventory for at least 8 weeks. Within 200 miles, there were four Mach Es that met my specs (extended range battery) and Ford's inventory search shows cars that are already sold (but not signed for).

It's supply and demand economics. Lots of strange things in the car market right now too. Some people have opportunity to sell their current car for a profit or near original value. The used market could normalize and people lose more resale value in a few months than current ADM costs. There's a changing market from ice to ev and it's hard to know if used ice cars will hold value or plunge in the next couple years. The Biden administration is putting in place policies that is making the price of gas go higher and higher. The cost of driving an ice will be going up. The convergence of many different things along with constrained supply change the economics of purchasing. One needs to take in to account all the variables and hedge their bets on what might happen a year or so down the road.

Although I normally would not pay ADM I will never get more for my current car that I will be getting rid of so logically if I paid a 2k fee I would break even on the deal

makes sense

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