EV property tax

[Blue highway]

Don't forget the Mach-E is so heavy and destroys every road it touches, I checked and it's ~600lbs heavier than a regular Mustang. That basically the BS my PA state senator gave me "EVs are so much heavier" he must think it's like 2 tons heavier. I hate talking to politicians!

The weight thing is BS... EVs weigh ~ same as a base F150 or Silverado.

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[Rt1AWD]

Yes, we should create incentives for not putting CO2 pollution into the atmosphere. Assessing the cost of this pollution to vehicles that throw off CO2 - and generating plants that generate electricity that throw off CO2 - would create the right incentives.

There is almost no real effort to create a "carbon tax" (eg, a pollution tax), just these back-door incentives which don't make a ton of sense (why is there a one-time tax rebate on a vehicle, given some will be powered by home solar, some by dirty grids, eg?).

As you live in NC, a true political battleground, I'm sure you appreciate the anti-EV sentiment among a broad section of the population, aligned on partisan boundaries. Taxing EVs and not giving them a "free ride" - when, in reality, we're subsidizing ICE because they're not paying the cost of their pollution. The kind of mental change required to realize what one generation grew up with is now known to be wrong --- it's a heavy lift.

You can't keep taxing poor more and more

 

[Billyk24]

Property tax? Then it should/could be part of your tax deductions. A registration fee/tax would not (?) Be part of a tax deduction.

 

[Rt1AWD]

some of the states are offering a two tiered system of EV fees, a higher flat rate (which would benefit people who do a lot of miles) and a mileage based rate (which benefit people that don't drive so much). I'm in the don't drive so much group, so the $210 GA ev fee which translates to the tax on 800 gallons of gas is far more than I ever use in a year.

Then you probably need a gasoline car

 

[Billyk24]

Yes, we should create incentives for not putting CO2 pollution into the atmosphere. Assessing the cost of this pollution to vehicles that throw off CO2 - and generating plants that generate electricity that throw off CO2 - would create the right incentives.

There is almost no real effort to create a "carbon tax" (eg, a pollution tax), just these back-door incentives which don't make a ton of sense (why is there a one-time tax rebate on a vehicle, given some will be powered by home solar, some by dirty grids, eg?).

As you live in NC, a true political battleground, I'm sure you appreciate the anti-EV sentiment among a broad section of the population, aligned on partisan boundaries. Taxing EVs and not giving them a "free ride" - when, in reality, we're subsidizing ICE because they're not paying the cost of their pollution. The kind of mental change required to realize what one generation grew up with is now known to be wrong --- it's a heavy lift.

Mental change is needed to many realizing aligning on partisan boundaries is not totally acurrate. Driven by the lame stream media is not helpful.

 

[Rt1AWD]

In CO, we stopped doing annual safety inspections in the 1980s. But emissions inspections are done every 2 years. Some vehicles are exempt, of course, like EVs. So lots of holes.

Personally, I'd be fine if they stop trying to reinvent the wheel of the gas tax. That worked well as a usage index, but it just doesn't translate to EVs. At this point I'd rather just switch to the general fund for roads. There are few things in our society that are as universally beneficial to 100% of the population as roads are, even if you aren't the driver. Deliveries, construction, utilities, maintenance, buses, taxis, emergency response, groceries, Amazon, etc etc etc all need and use roads. Give up on trying to track usage, which is gonna cost a lot more to administer, and have more holes than Swiss cheese.

We have many things using the general fund that are far less universally beneficial than roads. It's a prime candidate for general fund.

Taxing mileage is silly. The most "fair" way to go is just to start charging for using highways

 

[Blue highway]

In CO, we stopped doing annual safety inspections in the 1980s. But emissions inspections are done every 2 years. Some vehicles are exempt, of course, like EVs. So lots of holes.

Personally, I'd be fine if they stop trying to reinvent the wheel of the gas tax. That worked well as a usage index, but it just doesn't translate to EVs. At this point I'd rather just switch to the general fund for roads. There are few things in our society that are as universally beneficial to 100% of the population as roads are, even if you aren't the driver. Deliveries, construction, utilities, maintenance, buses, taxis, emergency response, groceries, Amazon, etc etc etc all need and use roads. Give up on trying to track usage, which is gonna cost a lot more to administer, and have more holes than Swiss cheese.

We have many things using the general fund that are far less universally beneficial than roads. It's a prime candidate for general fund.

One of the key benefits of a gas tax is that in most states it provides a fairly stable source of funding for roads that is not as tied to political whims as the general budget. My crystal ball says that we will wind up with mileage based taxes in most states over the next 10 years... you will have to show car mileage on your state income tax return or something similar. we will see.

 

[Blue highway]

Taxing mileage is silly. The most "fair" way to go is just to start charging for using highways

more miles are driven on non-highway roads than highways... how would you fund those?

 

[Rt1AWD]

more miles are driven on non-highway roads than highways... how would you fund those?

At the expense of those who use highways

 

[MellowJohnny]

The Province of Ontario, under Premier Doug Ford, scrapped our vehicle registrations fees in 2022. It was an election year

The reaction was actually not positive, as most drivers wondered where the government was going to make back the $1 billion dollars in lost revenue.

They've also temporarily cut the provincial gas tax. But like others have said, the money needs to come from somewhere. We only pay sales tax of 13% on DCFC sessions, so that goes in to the same big tax bucket as buying a pair of shoes.

 

[dbsb3233]

One of the key benefits of a gas tax is that in most states it provides a fairly stable source of funding for roads that is not as tied to political whims as the general budget. My crystal ball says that we will wind up with mileage based taxes in most states over the next 10 years... you will have to show car mileage on your state income tax return or something similar. we will see.

Which is part of why we'll probably never be able to get rid of the gas tax completely, even as it becomes less and less fair as a measure of road usage. And let's face it, government rarely ever gives up any of it's revenue sources, even if it's shrinking and they seek out ways to get more elsewhere.

Roads are already funded by a combination of various funding sources, not just one. Some states will try to implement a mileage tax (a few already are). But they probably won't get rid of their gas taxes. Or their vehicle registration fees. Or stop supplementing from property taxes, sales taxes, income taxes, and other taxes and fees.

Each state will have their own combo of sources. They already do, but they'll be even more splintered the more that gas tax revenue dries up.

One big question is what will the feds do? The federal gas tax funds the federal Highway Trust Fund. It's basically the feds laundering money from taxpayers in the states so they can pick and choose which state projects to redistribute it to. And it seems less and less of that is going to actual highways, but other public transportation that gas users are stuck funding. That scheme will gradually dry up. They'll probably just take more from the general fund (i.e. add to the national debt).

 

[garyd9]

The weight thing is BS... EVs weigh ~ same as a base F150 or Silverado.

F150:
2024: between 4,021–4,690 lbs (source: https://www.maxwellford.com/blog/model/2024-ford-f-150-single-cab-curb-weight/)

2024 Mach-E:
4595 to 4979 lbs (source: https://media.ford.com/content/dam/...2024/04/09/2024 Mustang Mach-E Tech Specs.pdf)

 

[david_quick]

in most states, there is a portion of your annual registration fee that is based on 'property value', but it is generally not itemized obviously when you pay your fee.

In the case of EVs, I suspect that adding 'EV use tax' to the 'property' tax is the simplest mechanism to collect revenue approximating what they would otherwise collect from gas/diesel sales.

Here the registration is $30. The gas tax it ~$200. In the past state wide it was much higher but we passed an initiative cutting registration to $30. There are cities here that have tacked on fees to pay for transit.

 

[dbsb3233]

Taxing mileage is silly. The most "fair" way to go is just to start charging for using highways

Meaning make everything a toll road? Some states (especially back east) do have more toll roads, but expanding tolling by 1000x would present a lot of problems, and add a ton of cost.

 

[Scooby24]

I am looking for reality on that data point. I haven’t found a source yet that grinds all the subsidy axes equally. May not be possible due to some of the logical arguments involved. I’m looking for peer-reviewed, not sensational garbage. I have lots of good EV arguments, but this is not one of them.

I've also tried to find something substantiated and it seems like it's a tough ask. It would likely be political suicide to even propose such a thing for any party.. But Elon said he'd like to see subsidies removed everywhere which would include oil and gas. I don't agree with him on much these days but definitely do on that...even if it's nowhere near that 15/gallon mark...we have alternative energy sources now...let's just remove subsidies from them all...that should be what capitalism is all about after all.

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