News already bashing

[dbsb3233]

I'll reiterate something I've said before: you are not speaking out of experience. This became much less of an issue once I actually started driving a BEV and seeing that it is not as inconvenient as I had expected and that much of range anxiety was unfounded.

Ignoring the always annoying "you can't know anything about something unless you've actually done it yourself" refrain, when we're talking about the rate of adoption of BEVs, such drawbacks are quite impactful. You may be just fine putting up with those negatives as a trade-off for the positives, and that's great. But I can guarantee you that people don't like being told what they should or shouldn't value more, or put up with because someone else says they should. They'll make that decision for themselves, and for their own situations, whether they feel the pros and cons are a net gain or loss for them.

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[ChasingCoral]

Ignoring the always annoying "you can't know anything about something unless you've actually done it yourself" refrain, when we're talking about the rate of adoption of BEVs, such drawbacks are quite impactful. You may be just fine putting up with those negatives as a trade-off for the positives, and that's great. But I can guarantee you that people don't like being told what they should or shouldn't value more, or put up with because someone else says they should. They'll make that decision for themselves, and for their own situations, whether they feel the pros and cons are a net gain or loss for them.

And I’m not telling you what you have to do or how you should feel. All I’m saying is there is value in experiencing something to help understand it and I’m being open to new ideas.

Of course, no one would ever buy one of those darn fangled automobiles either. Horses are much more reliable and always will be.

 

[stroszek]

I live in an apartment and don't have a place to charge here or at work, but I don't have a long commute and my tolerance for inconvenience is high so I don't really care. Nearest paid L2 charging is a 15 minute walk away, there's free L1 near my work but I'm not 100% sure if I'm allowed to charge there if I'm not visiting their building. We do have a free DCFC somewhere but I never plan to use it. What I might do is get a state park pass and spend a couple of hours a week at a nice park with their free L2 charger.

What I am worried about is that 90% of my road trips go through Duluth, a city where I wouldn't mind waiting a few hours, but they only have 1 non-Tesla DCFC and as far as I can tell no plans to get more. There are more DCFCs ~30 miles away from it, which is nice, but I really want to do my charging in places with things to do if possible.

 

[dbsb3233]

..

They are going to love the Mach E and range will be a non issue to the vast majority because most people dont take road trips on a regular basis. A very few do......but the majority do not.

Agreed, anyone that's forking over 60 grand for a Mach-E (or another BEV) has already decided it will work for their situation. Which may include some road trips, or no long road trips at all (taking an ICE instead, or they simply don't do long road trips).

It's the other 98% of the population that isn't buying BEVs (at least yet) that I was more talking about though.

 

[JamieGeek]

If it were at a major tourist spot as destination charging, then yes, L3 is a good fit. But not for residents charging full time. Unless/until full-time DCFC charging becomes a non-problem for batteries.

Sometimes even an L2 is a good fit at a tourist spot.

Prior to getting the Bolt we Turo'd one on vacation in San Fransico. While touring around we visited Muir Woods. They have two Level-2 chargers there. We were able to charge up the miles we had used to get there while we were wandering around the woods. What was surprising to me was that the chargers were available at all ! LOL.

 

[dbsb3233]

And I’m not telling you what you have to do or how you should feel. All I’m saying is there is value in experiencing something to help understand it and I’m being open to new ideas.

Of course, no one would ever buy one of those darn fangled automobiles either. Horses are much more reliable and always will be.

You keep suggesting this is about me, which it isn't. I'm talking about the consumer market as a whole. I've already decided to buy a Mach-E so you can quit aiming your arrows at me.

You may write off 6x longer refuels and 2x the frequency of refuels on road trips as "new-fangled", but resonable people known those are serious drawbacks compared to the "old-fangled horses". Which is where your snarky analogy falls apart. Doesn't mean some consumers won't be willing to make that trade-off. Obviously some do, and some will. But many won't until refueling outside the home gets much better.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

But many won't until refueling outside the home gets much better.

That's not even close to the primary resistance factor in BEV adoption. The primary factor in the failure to convert is inertia. People won't change until they have to regardless of the benefits or drawbacks. Inertia is easy. Change is hard.

 

[SnBGC]

I think that the range would not be such a what-if if somehow the tech gets good enough where the loss of battery year to year is as minimum as can be.

I dont expect to notice any capacity degredation for the first 3 or 4 years with my driving patterns. Folks with lower usage will go even longer before they observe any deg.

The Ford software will adjust so 88 kWh is available to the user for a very long time. The user will be oblivious to the actual percentage of total battery capacity that is available. A well trained Ford tech with suitable scan tool will be able to determine actual deg but even then only with the help of the engineers to review the data.

When my Focus Electric was new.....I had about 29.7 kWh available to me. 46k miles later I have about 29.5-29.6 as near as I can tell. I am sure the battery has some degredation but I dont see it yet. Eventually I will come up against the minimum limits for the buffer or hold-back or whatever we are calling it. At that point, battery deg can't be masked any longer and will become apparent.

 

[dbsb3233]

That's not even close to the primary resistance factor in BEV adoption. The primary factor in the failure to convert is inertia. People won't change until they have to regardless of the benefits or drawbacks. Inertia is easy. Change is hard.

That's another reason, yes. And lack of good choices. And too-high prices.

And if those that get past the high price and find a model they like to start seriously researching how they work, they find things like lack of chargers for half of the population (i.e. people that don't have a house), and the fact that advertised "range" isn't remotely close to the practical range where they usually care about it.

Still a LONG way to go and a lot that has to improve before there's mass adoption. Which is why BEVs sit at just 2% market share in the US. And why I suspect PHEVs could actually be bigger this decade.

 

[dbsb3233]

I dont expect to notice any capacity degredation for the first 3 or 4 years with my driving patterns. Folks with lower usage will go even longer before they observe any deg.

I don't either. More of a cumulative effect that becomes noticeable further into the lifespan of the product.

But that presents a bit of a Catch-22 as well, since we're frequently told "BEVs should last hundreds of thousands of miles because there's fewer moving parts!". That means they should have a much longer horizon, which means that even a modest rate of degradation matters more.

 

[DBC]

But that presents a bit of a Catch-22 as well, since we're frequently told "BEVs should last hundreds of thousands of miles because there's fewer moving parts!". That means they should have a much longer horizon, which means that even a modest rate of degradation matters more.

That's a fair point but perhaps not significant. First the whole "BEVs will last longer because they have fewer moving parts" is a myth. A BEV has has thousands of parts not related to the drive train, and all those parts can (and many will) break -- and even the most reliable drive train won't help with body rust.

Second, reduced range is less important than reduced reliability. At some point vehicles just become less reliable. Better to have a more reliable vehicle with reduced range than an unreliable one with any range.

At 10 years I'd expect the MME to lose 15% of its range, but I'd also expect it to be an "around town" vehicle.

 

[shutterbug]

No, it is very expensive - thus the rate double what you pay

No, as I said my rates are lower because hydro is so much cheater. Nuclear is cheaper than coal and gas. Solar and wind deployment by power companies is still so small that it's basically a rounding error.

Doesn't have to be perfect. But doing something that's not good for one's new expensive car is kinda the opposite.

No one is actually forcing anyone to use the DC charger. Personally, I would prefer more free L2 chargers, but individuals and organizations/corporations are free to do whatever they want.

 

[DBC]

That's another reason, yes. And lack of good choices. And too-high prices.

And if those that get past the high price and find a model they like to start seriously researching how they work, they find things like lack of chargers for half of the population (i.e. people that don't have a house), and the fact that advertised "range" isn't remotely close to the practical range where they usually care about it.

Nothing beats the convenience of home charging. it's like having your own washer/dryer. For people with designated parking there are solutions, but not for those who are limited to street parking. DC 50 kW charging is the most promoted solution for this, but it seems too slow.

While I don't think high prices are an actual barrier -- you can lease a Chevy Bolt with 259 miles of range for $0 down and $175/month, which is less than most ICE vehicles -- charging is definitely a barrier. If you have to park on the street and don't have a convenient way to charge then this is probably a no-go regardless of the price.

So the high prices for BEVs are a result of the unavailability of charging for lower income people, not a result of the high cost of the technology. A manufacturer can make a less expensive BEV, several have, but those won't sell because they are vehicles which would be bought by people who can't conveniently charge them.

 

[Badger_Prof]

We are working on a program with the local grocery stores to offer free DCFC with points earned by shopping at the store. They do it already (sorta) with fuel discounts so this is the next likely step.

Our discount grocery store has six Level 2 chargers for free use while shopping. Not a huge amount of charge while shopping but more than enough to cover the trip to the store and back.

 

[DBC]

No, as I said my rates are lower because hydro is so much cheater. Nuclear is cheaper than coal and gas. Solar and wind deployment by power companies is still so small that it's basically a rounding error.

Hydro is great for the electric bill, no doubt about that. However, combined gas is cheaper than coal which is cheaper than nuclear. Unless you ignore the decommissioning costs, at which point they're all about the same. https://www.lazard.com/media/451086/lazards-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-130-vf.pdf

Solar and wind account for 25% of electrical generation in CA.

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