News already bashing

[Leonard Rae]

We have a number of Select buyers here on the Forum who will disagree with your assessment.
[I purchased on order though the Select model with the technology package, mainly because i didn't need all of the stuff the other models offered. In addition by doing so I will qualify for both federal and provincial incentives. On delivery I have will have my daily driver and my summer car( too bad MME didn't offer a convertible, I would have probably gone for that model). Mileage did not enter into my reasoning for acquiring an EV. /QUOTE]

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[ChasingCoral]

Those folks just need to hang tight for a while longer. It's coming, we just can't install these things fast enough. Here in Phoenix the utility companies offer incentives to employers and multi family residences to install EV stations so it's not really an excuse here any longer.

It's fairly common for apartment complexes here to have EVSE stations. Many, if not all are free to use. I have an employee that just leased a Chevy Bolt for something like $225 per month. She can charge for free at her apartment complex and also here at work. It's about a 15 mile drive for her each way. She said she had no idea that it was even possible for her to own an EV. She didn't even know the Bolt existed and was so affordable and she believed the charging stations at her apartments were only for the Tesla owners.

For many....it's really about EV awareness, which is in short supply of course. And well, let's be honest.....the choices have been meager to say the least. I suspect that once the Mach E hits the streets then people are going to be MUCH more receptive to an EV lifestyle for themselves.

Good news on this front in Washington DC. The city council Yesterday voted to require that 20% of the parking does in new or renovated commercial or apartment buildings have infrastructure have to allow for future EV charging.

 

[ChasingCoral]

..

Agreed, anyone that's forking over 60 grand for a Mach-E (or another BEV) has already decided it will work for their situation. Which may include some road trips, or no long road trips at all (taking an ICE instead, or they simply don't do long road trips).

It's the other 98% of the population that isn't buying BEVs (at least yet) that I was more talking about though.

Remember that the Select model starts at $42K, which means $35K after the Federal incentive. Incentives that vary by state (both EV incentives and Ford Cash etc.) can reduce it by thousands more. We're not just talking about buyers of $60K top-end models.

 

[ChasingCoral]

Our discount grocery store has six Level 2 chargers for free use while shopping. Not a huge amount of charge while shopping but more than enough to cover the trip to the store and back.

Our two biggest organic market chains here have been installing free L2 chargers -- some mainline grocery chains are following suit. L2 chargers are also going in rapidly in our county parking garages, libraries, and community centers.

EA is rapidly building out L3 stations at Targets, Walmarts, shopping and outlet malls.

 

[shutterbug]

Hydro is great for the electric bill, no doubt about that. However, combined gas is cheaper than coal which is cheaper than nuclear. Unless you ignore the decommissioning costs, at which point they're all about the same. https://www.lazard.com/media/451086/lazards-levelized-cost-of-energy-version-130-vf.pdf

Solar and wind account for 25% of electrical generation in CA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Verde_Nuclear_Generating_Station

As of 2002, Palo Verde supplied electricity at 1.33 cents per kilowatt-hour;that price was cheaper than the cost of coal (2.26 cents per kW·h) or natural gas (4.54 cents per kW·h) in the region. However, this power was more expensive than hydroelectric power (0.63 cents per kW·h). ​

These numbers changed a bit, since gas is now much cheaper. However, I worked at APS in 2017-2018, and was involved in gathering data when they completely revamped their rates, I can confidently state that their cost of nuclear based electricity is cheaper than either coal or gas. Also coal plants are getting long in the tooth and are slowly going away

It doesn't matter how much wind/solar California has, since they have to buy electricity from neighboring states, including Arizona. California could improve this sad state of affairs if they took advantage of their hydro and geothermal potential, but that's not likely to happen.

 

[agoldman]

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/01/consumer-reports-finds-many-evs-unreliable/

" Consumer Reports has decided to downgrade the predicted reliability of several new EVs that were not even included in the survey, including the Ford Mustang Mach-E, "

 

[ChasingCoral]

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/12/01/consumer-reports-finds-many-evs-unreliable/

" Consumer Reports has decided to downgrade the predicted reliability of several new EVs that were not even included in the survey, including the Ford Mustang Mach-E, "

Predicting poor reliability in new EVs like the Mach E is a bit shaky considering how well the Bolt and Leaf do on reliability. Let's hope Ford proves them wrong on the Mach E.

 

[JamieGeek]

Predicting poor reliability in new EVs like the Mach E is a bit shaky considering how well the Bolt and Leaf do on reliability. Let's hope Ford proves them wrong on the Mach E.

That is mentioned in the article.

CR notes that some older, less-complicated EVs did well in the reliability survey, including the Chevrolet Bolt and the Nissan Leaf.

 

[ChasingCoral]

That is mentioned in the article.

Agreed. That was exactly my point. It seems they've made really broad assumptions that all the new BEVs will have reliability problems.

 

[DBC]

As of 2002, Palo Verde supplied electricity at 1.33 cents per kilowatt-hour;that price was cheaper than the cost of coal (2.26 cents per kW·h) or natural gas (4.54 cents per kW·h) in the region. However, this power was more expensive than hydroelectric power (0.63 cents per kW·h). ​

...
It doesn't matter how much wind/solar California has, since they have to buy electricity from neighboring states, including Arizona. California could improve this sad state of affairs if they took advantage of their hydro and geothermal potential, but that's not likely to happen.

So basically on the costs you are saying exactly what I said, which was:

"However, combined gas is cheaper than coal which is cheaper than nuclear. Unless you ignore the decommissioning costs, at which point they're all about the same."

So yes you can make nuclear cost competitive if you ignore the costs of building and "unbuilding" the plant, focusing solely on the marginal cost of producing a kWh. However, all costs ultimately have to be paid for. The MME is a good case in point. If I ignore the $50K it costs to acquire it, the MME is really cheap since I can run it for $.03/mile, but I'm not deluding myself into thinking it's cheaper than a $20K Kia Soul which costs $.10/mile to run.

No idea what point you are trying to make about California importing electricity. The system is set up to do that, and it doesn't change the source mix of the electricity in any way. Also not sure of the hydro and geothermal comment. CA is ranked first in the nation as a producer of electricity from solar, geothermal, and biomass and fourth in the nation in conventional hydroelectric power generation.

 

[DBC]

Predicting poor reliability in new EVs like the Mach E is a bit shaky considering how well the Bolt and Leaf do on reliability. Let's hope Ford proves them wrong on the Mach E.

The Mach E has two things going against it. One of Ford's brand reliability. Two is this:

“Often, it’s not the EV tech that’s problematic,” says Anita Lam, CR’s associate director of automotive data integration. “It’s all the other new technology that could show up on any car — new infotainment systems, more sophisticated power equipment and gadgets — that often gets put on new EVs to feed a perception that they’re supposed to be luxurious and high-tech.”

Basically lots of spiffy stuff on the MME so plenty of opportunities for failure. I'm OK with that so long as the basic car stuff works. For ICE vehicles the issues are often related to the drive train but with BEVs the power electronics are a big source of failure. Tesla is great at the power electronics and miserable at the car stuff whereas the traditional car manufacturers are good at the car stuff and less than stellar at the power electronic stuff. Will be interesting to see how the MME fares.

 

[supertramp]

It's fairly common for apartment complexes here to have EVSE stations. Many, if not all are free to use.

It's kind of shocking that it's free (I only heard about flat rate fee for apartment complex residents who use those stations), but now imagine that those charging stations are occupied 24x7 (when more EVs are there) and for how long charging stays free? I guess, at the end, somebody still has to pay for the electricity.

 

[dbsb3233]

It's kind of shocking that it's free (I only heard about flat rate fee for apartment complex residents who use those stations), but now imagine that those charging stations are occupied 24x7 (when more EVs are there) and for how long charging stays free? I guess, at the end, somebody still has to pay for the electricity.

Yep. There is no free lunch, as they say. Someone's paying for it, whether it be the apartment complex, taxpayers, etc. Whenever possible, it's best that the actual users pay for it. But that commonly requires costly equipment and administration to include POS (point-of-sale) capability, which can result in fewer chargers being installed.

What I suspect will be more common at apartments is not so much POS, but rather access control. The chargers will be "free" (no POS payment), but they'll be access-controlled to ensure only apartment residents use them. And possibly just select residents that pay a flat monthly fee as you mentioned. Maybe behind a control gate.

Some may just have them totally open and free right now, but as more BEVs hit the road, those are likely to have problems with people fighting to get on them. Leading to the necessary implementation of access control. When people are relying on their BEV to get them to work the next day, they want a guaranteed charger open when getting home at 10% that night.

 

[Regularmache]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Verde_Nuclear_Generating_Station

As of 2002, Palo Verde supplied electricity at 1.33 cents per kilowatt-hour;that price was cheaper than the cost of coal (2.26 cents per kW·h) or natural gas (4.54 cents per kW·h) in the region. However, this power was more expensive than hydroelectric power (0.63 cents per kW·h). ​

These numbers changed a bit, since gas is now much cheaper. However, I worked at APS in 2017-2018, and was involved in gathering data when they completely revamped their rates, I can confidently state that their cost of nuclear based electricity is cheaper than either coal or gas. Also coal plants are getting long in the tooth and are slowly going away

It doesn't matter how much wind/solar California has, since they have to buy electricity from neighboring states, including Arizona. California could improve this sad state of affairs if they took advantage of their hydro and geothermal potential, but that's not likely to happen.

OMGosh, we here in Florida panhandle pay 11.8 cents per kwh. 8.9 from 11PM to 559 AM. How does california justify those costs? I would just freak. No wonder my 12 kvw Solar system has a longer payback period than my brothers in San Diego.

 

[SnBGC]

It's kind of shocking that it's free (I only heard about flat rate fee for apartment complex residents who use those stations), but now imagine that those charging stations are occupied 24x7 (when more EVs are there) and for how long charging stays free? I guess, at the end, somebody still has to pay for the electricity.

I imagine there are a variety of scenarios in place....
The apartment complex that I am familiar with at the moment pays for the electricity and they consider it part of the amenities package with the swimming pool, exercise room etc. There are a total of 4 plugs available to the tenants. The community is gated so that helps ensure that only tenants or their guests have access.

When my daughter lived there, I would sometimes charge if I was visiting for a while. They have ChargePoint stations so I had to use my phone app to activate the machine. I have the proximity feature activated on my phone so I just swipe it near the machine and it beeps and turns on. I then get a message on my phone when the vehicle is done charging. I also get a message from ChargePoint for the electricity costs which was always $0.00 (because it was paid by the apartment complex)

I chatted with some other EV owners living in the complex. They say it's very easy and convenient and it is rare for all 4 spots to be occupied but it has happened once or twice. The software allows them to reserve charging times and even alerts the users to please move their car because someone else is in line or their reserved time is coming up.

There was one time where I attempted to charge and it said that I would only have 5 minutes before I had to move because someone else had reserved that space. So, I just moved over to the next spot and used that side instead. Shortly afterwards, the other user showed up and their spot was ready for them. I think it's a very reasonable solution. The community there at that complex seem to all work together so access hasn't been an issue yet. Over time, there will need to be more charging stations but they are fairly easy to add.

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