Reduction Gear Oil changes?

[Scooby24]

Saw this video on the Kona EV and how bad the gear oil looks after only 24k miles. Makes me wonder if we should be proactively considering doing a gear oil change every 10-20k miles?

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[phidauex]

Well, I can’t see that video, but I can say that if gear oil looks bad after 24k miles then something is seriously wrong with the gearbox. I drained the transfer case and differentials on my 1997 Tacoma after 75k miles (230k on the vehicle) and the oil came out clean enough to cook with.

I don’t think you should plan on proactively changing the oil. If there is a problem with gearboxes we’ll find out about it, and the solution would be to fix the gearbox, not just throw lubricant at it.

 

[Mach-Lee]

I was wondering about this too. On a new Escape I changed the PTU fluid (which is a "lifetime" fluid according to Ford) after 10,000 miles and it was about 10% metal, all black. Magnet saturated. I got a magnet to stick to the bottom of the oil container I poured it in. Changed it after another 10,000 miles, this time it looked brand new. Night and day difference. Conclusion: wear-in metal contamination.

So my recommendation would be to change it once at 5-10k to get all the metal out from the gears wearing in, then you are probably good for 50-100k after that.

 

[Scooby24]

Well, I can’t see that video, but I can say that if gear oil looks bad after 24k miles then something is seriously wrong with the gearbox. I drained the transfer case and differentials on my 1997 Tacoma after 75k miles (230k on the vehicle) and the oil came out clean enough to cook with.

I don’t think you should plan on proactively changing the oil. If there is a problem with gearboxes we’ll find out about it, and the solution would be to fix the gearbox, not just throw lubricant at it.

You're probably right, I've had the same experiences with gear oil lasting a long time on good cases/differentials. I don't know enough about the maintenance of EVs but I do wonder if the intense torque is significantly harder on the gears.

 

[Scooby24]

I was wondering about this too. On a new Escape I changed the PTU fluid (which is a "lifetime" fluid according to Ford) after 10,000 miles and it was about 10% metal, all black. Magnet saturated. I got a magnet to stick to the bottom of the oil container I poured it in. Changed it after another 10,000 miles, this time it looked brand new. Night and day difference. Conclusion: wear-in metal contamination.

So my recommendation would be to change it once at 5-10k to get all the metal out from the gears wearing in, then you are probably good for 50-100k after that.

I like this approach. After all...if it's as simple as a transfer case/differential/manual transmission drain and fill...it can't hurt anything, cost hardly anything, or take any time.

 

[breeves002]

Ford says 10yr/150k mile interval, though I suspect a 75k mile interval makes more sense. It is kind of crazy that they do those extreme intervals.

Keep in mind the front motor is gear oil but rear is trans fluid.

How to do it here: https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...smission-oil-gear-oil-yes-thats-a-thing.5395/

 

[Scarpia]

Why do people think they know more than the manufacturer? The recommended interval will be just fine.
It's like people who insist on changing their engine oil every 3,000 miles. That was a great idea 30 years ago. Now it's just wasteful and environmentally terrible.

 

[Vanilla-gorilla]

I disagree. Licensed, Canadian Red-seal heavy duty mechanic here.

Changing oil after 10,000 is a good idea because the break in period is real no matter what you have powering your gear case. You'll notice when you hammer the car from dead stop that is not going to deliver full power, this would break the cv shafts due to shock load, or gear teeth.

I wouldn't trust automotive manufacturers intervals. I would trust them to do the repair, because that's a licensed tech and warranty behind it is really what I'm interested in.

But, engineers? Come on... Especially from a company that makes money selling cars. ?

Always question what's really going on

 

[Scooby24]

Why do people think they know more than the manufacturer? The recommended interval will be just fine.
It's like people who insist on changing their engine oil every 3,000 miles. That was a great idea 30 years ago. Now it's just wasteful and environmentally terrible.

I'm driving BMWs right now with their "lifetime" fluids. You'll have to forgive me if I don't trust the maintenance intervals to coincide with reality, when speaking to optimal intervals. I'm thinking a few quarts of oil every couple years isn't not exactly "terrible" for the environment when considering the trade off for reliability and all the impacts to requiring sooner than necessary replacements of failed components.

It's my belief that the manufacturers are interested in recommending longer than optimal intervals to reduce the cost of ownership metrics short term instead of optimal intervals that would better serve reliability long term.

 

[Scarpia]

It's my belief that the manufacturers are interested in recommending longer than optimal intervals to reduce the cost of ownership metrics short term instead of optimal intervals that would better serve reliability long term.

You've got it backwards. It makes zero sense that automakers would possibly compromise long-term reliability by specifying long service intervals. There is little benefit to the manufacturer, as possible owners are never going to look at the service frequency up front when deciding which car to buy.

Ford is competing with Toyota and Honda, whose cars regularly go 200,000+ miles with just regular maintenance. Long-term reliability and lifespan of the car are infinitely more important to the brand than saying you don't need to change your gear oil as often.

As for environmental impact, search "3000 mile oil change" and you'll find plenty of info. I thought this quote from CalRecycle summed it up nicely:

By volume, used motor oil is one of the largest hazardous waste streams in California: Almost 115 million gallons are sold in the state each year. While about 70 percent is collected after use, it continues to be a serious environmental problem because it is insoluble and contains heavy metals and toxic chemicals. It makes its way into lakes, streams, and oceans via the storm water system and endangers fish, waterfowl, insects, and other aquatic life. In addition, one gallon of used motor oil can foul the taste of 1 million gallons of water.

 

[Scooby24]

You've got it backwards. It makes zero sense that automakers would possibly compromise long-term reliability by specifying long service intervals. There is little benefit to the manufacturer, as possible owners are never going to look at the service frequency up front when deciding which car to buy.

Ford is competing with Toyota and Honda, whose cars regularly go 200,000+ miles with just regular maintenance. Long-term reliability and lifespan of the car are infinitely more important to the brand than saying you don't need to change your gear oil as often.

As for environmental impact, search "3000 mile oil change" and you'll find plenty of info. I thought this quote from CalRecycle summed it up nicely:

You state this as though I'm factually incorrect. Do you have some inside knowledge of these decisions the manufacturers make?

We aren't talking 3000 mile oil changes here....nor motor oil. That said, our motor oil, by law, is recycled. I'm unclear how my oil I'm turning over to my local auto parts store is making its way into lakes/stream/etc. I was under the impression it's reused as other sources of fuel through that recycling process. Do you change your own oil?

As to possible owners "never looking up service frequency"...the OEMs like BMW are providing maintenance plans as a way of reducing maintenance costs up front which is something buyers are considering when buying their vehicles. In their research they look into total cost of ownership. It's a fairly common metric savvy buyers are looking into. I'm a little surprised to hear you suggest no one does it...that's why we have long term reviews of vehicles...your suggestion makes me question you experience if I'm being honest.

Now, with the OEMs paying for maintenance costs, do you suppose there might be some long term reliability sacrificed to reduce those costs?

Here's a great article that summarizes many of the opinions of the folks that specialize in aftermarket BMW repair. http://bavarianmachine.com/lifetime-isnt-long-think/

 

[iankellogg]

I agree that a lot of the maintenance intervals seems silly but my experience with oil is that its often changed before it really is needed. Even the every 10k miles for motor oil is more frequent than needed for most cars.

 

[HuntingPudel]

The interval at which you change the differential lubricants depends on how and where you drive. On my Blazer, I change after every trip that has a crossing greater than hub depth or is in a really dusty, gritty environment. On my Trans Am, it’s when the lube starts smelling like burnt cat pee (takes a large bit of beating on to get that). For the more or less ordinary type of driving that I will be doing with my MME GT-PE, I will probably go with Ford’s recommendation.

 

[AzCoronaDog]

Why do people think they know more than the manufacturer? The recommended interval will be just fine.
It's like people who insist on changing their engine oil every 3,000 miles. That was a great idea 30 years ago. Now it's just wasteful and environmentally terrible.

I still do oil changes every 3k miles, even though I use synthetic oil that theoretically should be good for 7 - 10k. Why? Because while the oil is better at not losing viscosity, ICE technology has not changed that much. So the crud that got into the oil in your 1960's car is still getting in there in 2021. And oil filters generally have gotten smaller, but the tech is not that much better. When the filter starts to clog, it bypasses. All my ICE vehicles have high performance engines that make a lot of HP and torque and require premium fuel. And I live in the desert - hot, dry and dusty.
I change my own oil, so it only costs me a couple of hundred dollars more a year for my 3 ICE vehicles. My cars engines have consistently been more trouble free than average, so I feel like it is well worth it.
As for environmentally terrible, I drop my used oil off at a the auto parts store (where I assume it is being recycled), and a couple of extra oil filters in the landfill is not not nearly as bad as scrapping a vehicle years sooner.

 

[Scarpia]

I disagree. Licensed, Canadian Red-seal heavy duty mechanic here.

Changing oil after 10,000 is a good idea because the break in period is real no matter what you have powering your gear case. You'll notice when you hammer the car from dead stop that is not going to deliver full power, this would break the cv shafts due to shock load, or gear teeth.

I wouldn't trust automotive manufacturers intervals. I would trust them to do the repair, because that's a licensed tech and warranty behind it is really what I'm interested in.

But, engineers? Come on... Especially from a company that makes money selling cars. ?

Always question what's really going on

Ha, I'm probably as skeptical as anyone you'll ever meet. I question everything. It comes down to motivation.

What motivation is there to specify an incorrect - especially a too-long - maintenance interval? Who would benefit from that? Oil and filter manufacturers, Jiffy Lube, etc., would be the main beneficiaries. Long-term, not the auto manufacturers.

An earlier post mentioned the old-wives-tale of "getting the metal out from the gears wearing in". Again, that was great advice back in the 1970's or 80's, but modern manufacturing tolerances and methods, as well as synthetic lubricants, mean that is simply no longer needed. Cars don't have "break-in" periods like they used to.

And, no offense to you, but I'll trust engineers on this, rather than techs. The engineers are working with current data and test results, while techs are working with anecdotal evidence and opinion, which is often outdated.

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