Spontaneous fire

[Fixbear]

I don’t blame you for not knowing this, but this “autoinsuranceEZ” thing about EV fires is completely fabricated BS.

Just look at the numbers and think about it.

3500 car fires per 100,000 vehicle sales?

There are about 300,000 cars in my town. You would notice if over 11,000 of them caught fire.

There is no official source that tracks vehicle fires nor the source of them. But we do know that autoinsuranceEZ is definitely False.

More details from a legitimate source that questioned those silly figures:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a40163966/cars-catching-fire-new-york-times-real-statistics/


No, Millions of Cars Are Not Catching Fire Every Year
A New York Times story about U.S. car fires references a study that gets the frequency wrong by a factor of at least 60.
By Ezra DyerPublished: Jun 2, 2022


You don't have to be a professional statistician to notice that these AutoInsuranceEZ numbers look a wee bit questionable. Because, EVs and hybrids aside, if 1530 conventional internal-combustion cars (aka, "most of the cars") are catching fire per 100,000 vehicles, that would equate to millions of car fires each year—as of 2020, there were roughly 270 million registered passenger vehicles in the US. Imagine that: You'd definitely know someone whose car caught fire. Maybe your car caught fire. It might be on fire right now! "Oh, another car fire," you'd say, driving past the third conflagration of your morning commute.
To try to figure out where these numbers came from, we first contacted the National Transportation Safety Board, purported source for the car-fire statistics. And the NTSB's spokesman told us, "There is no NTSB database that tracks highway vehicle fires. We do not know what data AutoInsuranceEZ used for its research, but it did not come from an NTSB database." They suggested that perhaps the study authors confused the NTSB with NHTSA, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. So we contacted NHTSA.

And guess what? NHTSA doesn't collect fire data in this way, either. NHTSA—which we should call "the NHTSA," but that sounds weird—collects data on crashes but says that only about 5 percent of fires are crash-related. So they rely on other sources for information, like the National Fire Incident Reporting System (NFIRS). Which, in any case, doesn't categorize fires according to the type of vehicle powertrain.

I know that most states collect fire data. I used to make out the incident reports. So likely the only source would likely be NFPA

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[Mach1E]

I know that most states collect fire data. I used to make out the incident reports. So likely the only source would likely be NFPA

They may collect it, but it doesn’t seem that anyone aggregates it or adjusts it based on car type and source of the fire.

Very different if the car catches fire from a crash, arson, a natural disaster or spontaneous combustion.

About the only data we have is from news stories, fire departments, and personal experience.

Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that neither is really more likely to catch fire and both are really rare on the spontaneous combustion side. The difference lies in how hard they are to put out.

Gas powered race cars for example require a small on board fire extinguisher and that’s all they need.

 

[Fixbear]

They may collect it, but it doesn’t seem that anyone aggregates it or adjusts it based on car type and source of the fire.

Very different if the car catches fire from a crash, arson, a natural disaster or spontaneous combustion.

About the only data we have is from news stories, fire departments, and personal experience.

Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that neither is really more likely to catch fire and both are really rare on the spontaneous combustion side. The difference lies in how hard they are to put out.

Gas powered race cars for example require a small on board fire extinguisher and that’s all they need.

Oh they do, but it's kept behind a paywall and considered confidential to the Fire service and fire codes dept.

 

[HuntingPudel]

<SNIP>
Gas powered race cars for example require a small on board fire extinguisher and that’s all they need.

While most sanctioning bodies require an on-board suppression system, the required size is usually kept to a minimum because it’s not meant to put out the car fire, just to allow the occupant to remove their restraint gear and exit, and for safety crews to arrive with more effective means of putting it out.

Last weekend’s Bristol night race is an example where the on-board suppression system was bsolutely useless since it is designed to suppress the cabin. A driver had to be pulled from the car due to smoke from fires on the exhaust system fueled by rubber marbles collecting in the rocker boxes. Many other competitors could be seen to have wheel well fires during pit stops when the rubber debriis got on the brakes as old wheels were removed.

 

[cswebster]

Yes and no.

One thing that makes things “newsworthy” is the intensity of the experience.

ICE fires aren’t as newsworthy because they’re not a big deal (typically).

ICE car fires typically don’t….
take hours to put out.
Set an entire dealership on fire
Set and entire ship on fire
Spontaneously happen in a saltwater flood
Continue to burn under ocean water

And those are just a few recent “newsworthy” stories that come to mind.

And yes, I clicked on each one of those stories because they’re interesting. Not much different than when someone gets eaten by a shark.

That said, we actually have no clue if EVs or ICEs are more likely to catch fire (very little real data out there).

But we do know it’s a bigger deal if an EV does because of how hard they are to put out. Just ask any firefighter.

And just think about it. With thermal runaway Lithium ion batteries are extremely dangerous, and fires are a possibility only if these batts become damaged, as in an MVA for example. ICE engines use an incredibly flammable material (gasoline) to power them, so flammable that the slightest spark can ignite the vapors if they are spilled. Ive been in at least two Tesla MVA’s where the car didn’t catch fire. I was on a typical MVA recently with two mid-size SUV’s where one was a Subaru that was fully involved. Most likely a fuel line had ruptured on impact and ignited on a hot surface in the engine compartment. So, I would worry more about ICE engines parked in your garage that are still hot than an EV in the garage.

 

[cswebster]

And just think about it. With thermal runaway Lithium ion batteries are extremely dangerous, and fires are a possibility only if these batts become damaged, as in an MVA for example. ICE engines use an incredibly flammable material (gasoline) to power them, so flammable that the slightest spark can ignite the vapors if they are spilled. Ive been in at least two Tesla MVA’s where the car didn’t catch fire. I was on a typical MVA recently with two mid-size SUV’s where one was a Subaru that was fully involved. Most likely a fuel line had ruptured on impact and ignited on a hot surface in the engine compartment. So, I would worry more about ICE engines parked in your garage that are still hot than an EV in the garage.

Here’s a great podcast to learn more about out how we think about lithium ion fires in the fire service. And remember, these batteries are everywhere, from this device I’m typing on to entire facilities using battery back ups.

 

[Side Show Bob]

My question is before heat pumps, does the older Mache use strip heaters for heating? If they do I believe this is the area they would be . I don’t know maybe someone else has thoughts?

 

[raffig]

It could have been from another device inside the car like with a battery that went bad, like a a Samsung phone or a vap pen.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

It could have been from another device inside the car like with a battery that went bad, like a a Samsung phone or a vap pen.

The resistance heaters are an unlikely source of ignition if the car was off and in reasonably good mechanical shape. I'd go with rodent damage as the primary factor. Runaway vapes could do it too, but absent any indication they were the source, it's rats.

 

[Mach1E]

And just think about it. With thermal runaway Lithium ion batteries are extremely dangerous, and fires are a possibility only if these batts become damaged, as in an MVA for example. ICE engines use an incredibly flammable material (gasoline) to power them, so flammable that the slightest spark can ignite the vapors if they are spilled. Ive been in at least two Tesla MVA’s where the car didn’t catch fire. I was on a typical MVA recently with two mid-size SUV’s where one was a Subaru that was fully involved. Most likely a fuel line had ruptured on impact and ignited on a hot surface in the engine compartment. So, I would worry more about ICE engines parked in your garage that are still hot than an EV in the garage.

I agree about the garage thing. I park all my cars in garages…… except when we had saltwater flooding from hurricanes last year. Very glad I safely parked my Mach E on higher ground or else my house would have flooded and burned down.

 

[MachhE-CT]

It really makes me nervous to park in my garage now! I have the same year and RWD but extended range.

Many years ago, when I was much younger, I remember an incident in my parents garage .. We had a 58 Plymouth something that was parked in the garage . We smelled something burning, It was the Plymouth. The speedometer cable fell off the back of the speedometer and fell across the light switch. In those days the outer casing of a speedometer cable was metal. It shorter accross the light switch and started the fire. So it can happen to any car.

 

[DYohn]

I have seen exactly one car fire in my 70+ years. A few years ago, my neighbor got drunk at the Elks Lodge and drove home in her mid-90's Buick without realizing one of her front tires was flat. By the time she pulled into her garage the rubber was gone and she was driving on the wheel. The brake was dragging so badly that the wheel got very hot, and a few minutes after parking it burst into flames. The Fire Department got it out quickly and they saved the house. No batteries involved.

 

[tonytaylor53]

A lot of ICE fires are high mileage, poorly maintained, clapped out rust buckets. We are just now getting BEVs on the road that are 10 years old, and primarily from a single manufacturer at that age. I am curious what fresh hazards a neglected 25 year old BEV will present. I doubt the wiring insulation will break down, but what about failed inverter cooling systems? I suppose that these modules will all have self-protection features. Corroded connections? That's probably handled the same as HVJB contactor trouble in the software. Unforeseen transistor aging in chargers and inverters? Unrepaired physical battery damage from road debris? A floorboard full of vape pens?

 

[Mach1E]

A lot of ICE fires are high mileage, poorly maintained, clapped out rust buckets. We are just now getting BEVs on the road that are 10 years old, and primarily from a single manufacturer at that age. I am curious what fresh hazards a neglected 25 year old BEV will present. I doubt the wiring insulation will break down, but what about failed inverter cooling systems? I suppose that these modules will all have self-protection features. Corroded connections? That's probably handled the same as HVJB contactor trouble in the software. Unforeseen transistor aging in chargers and inverters? Unrepaired physical battery damage from road debris? A floorboard full of vape pens?

It’s a fair point, but hopefully no increased concern with age.

There are plenty of old Teslas, Nissan Leafs and Prius’ on the road to test that theory.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

There are plenty of old Teslas, Nissan Leafs and Prius’ on the road to test that theory.

Old Leafs are in very high demand on this island. They're being used for PVE battery storage. People are literally parking them by their house and building a shelter around them, then hooking up to their solar systems, mostly off-griders.

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