Texas Tesla Tragedy

[ARK]

Correct. The news /media is taking the Lars quote and running with it, not fully understanding the tech terms or manipulating the words on purpose.

Most likely there will be a statement made once the investigation is complete and the results are provided to the public. Unfortunately the damage by the media is already done. This happened to Tesla multiple times in the past. No one really cares 2-3 months from now what the facts are, unfortunately.

The only explanation I have for this is to have the seat belt buckled, and then getting the car engaged in AP or TACC, and then jumping into the back seat. This will bypass the safety measures and prevent the car from slowing down. If the crash was at a high speed, there's still no explanation for that. *If* auto pilot was engaged, it can only go 5 mph over the posted speed limit on non-divided highways. If no speed limit sign is detected, the max speed it will go is 45 mph. *If* TACC was engaged, it will maintain the current speed, but it depends on the user setting. Based upon Lars quote mentioning 30 mph, I would have to believe that is the posted speed limit in the area.

It's possible to be going at a slower speed than the posted limit and you have the option to have it speed up to the speed limit but limited to 5 mph over the speed limit. In both situations, a high speed situation isn't possible. The only explanation, which is speculation at this point until more facts are released, was a driver input or manipulation of the accelerator pedal. I just don't see how APP or TACC is at fault.

I agree with much of the sentiment that a lot of the blame for this tragic accident is on the driver based on the actions he took to defeat the autopilot safeguards, assuming autopilot was involved the way the accident investigators believe.

But I would not give much credence to what Tesla is saying publicly in this situation. Unlike the accident investigators, Tesla employees don't have the same incentive to be neutral, to just figure out what happened and tell the world about it.

They are facing a big PR issue and they know it, they will try and deflect blame whatever the reality. I don't mean to single Tesla out here because it's pretty much what any company would be doing to a varying degree if they were in this situation, but my point is, I would be very hesitant to take any Tesla statement on this accident at face value.

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[Woeo]

Sure.

Basic Autopilot by design requires line markers to be enabled. It uses those markers like other auto steering systems to establish the lane to remain in. If the lane markers don't exist, you can't enable Autopilot as there is no established lane recognized by the car.

Subdivisions, by and large, have no line markers.

I understand that some have mentioned that the Woodlands is a huge area with some roads within it with lane markers.

But this is a picture of the actual path the car took. These cul-de-sac roads don't have lane markers.

Hope that helps.

Doesn’t jibe with the videos coming out.

 

[jhalkias]

sure, except other companies don't have this problem because they do proper driver monitoring.

I'm not sure why this is having to be repeated since this has been said over and over, but the reason Tesla is getting blamed is because Tesla refuses to implement basic safety features in the form of proper driver monitoring (you know, like "old, out of touch" GM and Ford do), and yet continuously oversell the capabilities of their system.

Tesla owns these deaths. There's zero debating that. They absolutely could have prevented them through basic driver monitoring they refuse to do, because Elon Musk is convinced he's smarter than he is.

And by the way, Tesla knows it, which is why Musk tweeted that Autopilot was off when he knew it was on in an effort to remove their corporate responsbility, and it's why he's hosting SNL.

I went for over 6 months on this forum without saying anything negative about Tesla, trying as hard as I could to bend over backwards in fairness to them, but they are long past the point of deserving any shadow of a doubt. Their range is a never-ending lie, their statements about their ADAS capabilities are a never-ending lie, their ability to make profit without the government's help (why do you think carbon credits exist? it's because of the US government!) is a lie, their insistence that their paint problems are all the EPA's fault is a lie... it's lie upon lie upon lie upon lie upon lie.

And as long as they get away with it, they will continue to own deaths.

???

 

[timbop]

I laugh every time some points to Musk and says "but he said......" Who the F is Musk to be paid attention too, it's not like he built Tesla, AP or FSD. He's just another used car salesman pitching his product, unfortunately there are clowns who hang on to his every word.

exactly. No one pays attention to him at all. It's not like there's a cult of rabid fans who hang on his every word. Seriously, Musk doesn't have a community of fanboys the way Jim Farley does.

 

[Regularmache]

sure, except other companies don't have this problem because they do proper driver monitoring.

I'm not sure why this is having to be repeated since this has been said over and over, but the reason Tesla is getting blamed is because Tesla refuses to implement basic safety features in the form of proper driver monitoring (you know, like "old, out of touch" GM and Ford do), and yet continuously oversell the capabilities of their system.

Tesla owns these deaths. There's zero debating that. They absolutely could have prevented them through basic driver monitoring they refuse to do, because Elon Musk is convinced he's smarter than he is.

And by the way, Tesla knows it, which is why Musk tweeted that Autopilot was off when he knew it was on in an effort to remove their corporate responsbility, and it's why he's hosting SNL.

I went for over 6 months on this forum without saying anything negative about Tesla, trying as hard as I could to bend over backwards in fairness to them, but they are long past the point of deserving any shadow of a doubt. Their range is a never-ending lie, their statements about their ADAS capabilities are a never-ending lie, their ability to make profit without the government's help (why do you think carbon credits exist? it's because of the US government!) is a lie, their insistence that their paint problems are all the EPA's fault is a lie... it's lie upon lie upon lie upon lie upon lie.

And as long as they get away with it, they will continue to own deaths.

One of us believes Stupidity and completely improper operation of a vehicle is not the operators fault, but Tesla. The other believes that irresponsible, reckless operation of a vehicle causing injury or death is the operators fault.

Doesn't sound like you and I will ever agree, but I do respect your opinion.

 

[DBC]

Tesla is as much to blame as Ford is to blame for all the wrecks when Mustang drivers leave Cars and Coffee

It's all about personal responsibility. Are you going to blame Ford when Blues Clues in the Mach-E is hacked and we start seeing the same "social media stars" driving while sleeping.

I'm laughing because in trying to say Tesla isn't responsible you've actually established that it is.

GM's Supercruise is a hands free driver assist system. It's been on the market for several years. So how many videos do we have of "social media stars" using Supercruise to drive while sleeping? The answer is .... wait for it .... zero. Why? Because GM has a safe system not the dangerous POS Tesla has put out.

That's a fact you can't argue with. Which means your question establishes that Tesla is responsible.

Further establishing Tesla's responsibility is the entire way it has marketed its driver assist system. Let's start with the names: "Autopilot" and "Full Self Driving". You believe those suggest this is a non hands free Level II driver assist system? If you still want to deny the obvious, how about this Tesla video which begins by noting that "The person in the drivers is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself".

Wake up. Smell the coffee. And stop being an enabler.

 

[DBC]

One of us believes Stupidity and completely improper operation of a vehicle is not the operators fault, but Tesla. The other believes that irresponsible, reckless operation of a vehicle causing injury or death is the operators fault.

Look at the video which Tesla released when marketing AutoPilot -- posted above -- and tell me what @GoGoGadgetMachE is missing. Seems like what you are calling the irresponsible, reckless operation of a vehicle is EXACTLY what Tesla is saying you can do with Autopilot. No hands on the wheel. Only need a driver "for legal reasons". Etc. etc.

Your paradigm -- it's one or the other -- sets up a false choice. This is hardly a case where you have to choose which of two parties is stupid and reckless. Plenty of stupidity and recklessness to go around. Is there any doubt these people are stupid and reckless? No. Can there be any doubt that Tesla has been stupid and reckless? No.

 

[Regularmache]

Look at the video which Tesla released when marketing AutoPilot -- posted above -- and tell me what @GoGoGadgetMachE is missing. Seems like what you are calling the irresponsible, reckless operation of a vehicle is EXACTLY what Tesla is saying you can do with Autopilot. No hands on the wheel. Only need a driver "for legal reasons". Etc. etc.

Your paradigm -- it's one or the other -- sets up a false choice. This is hardly a case where you have to choose which of two parties is stupid and reckless. Plenty of stupidity and recklessness to go around. Is there any doubt these people are stupid and reckless? No. Can there be any doubt that Tesla has been stupid and reckless? No.

I Always appreciate differing views DBC so thank you. I don't agree, but that's okay. State of Texas where the accident happened, states it's illegal to drive a self driving car on the roadway. A few companies have been authorized self driving cars for testing purposes only. It is illegal for the pubic to even has no legal right to drive in xomp

Look at the video which Tesla released when marketing AutoPilot -- posted above -- and tell me what @GoGoGadgetMachE is missing. Seems like what you are calling the irresponsible, reckless operation of a vehicle is EXACTLY what Tesla is saying you can do with Autopilot. No hands on the wheel. Only need a driver "for legal reasons". Etc. etc.

Your paradigm -- it's one or the other -- sets up a false choice. This is hardly a case where you have to choose which of two parties is stupid and reckless. Plenty of stupidity and recklessness to go around. Is there any doubt these people are stupid and reckless? No. Can there be any doubt that Tesla has been stupid and reckless? No.

I see a person in the seat? Awake? Pilots are allowed auto-pilot I'm their planes, but either Pilot or co are required to be monitoring and alert in the seat. I believe Tesla requires that.
Again DBC, I'm the son of two generation Ford workers from the Detroit until the Air Force moved me around. I'm no Tesla fanboy, but operators have to take responsibility for their actions. If the driver was in the seat monitoring the car or plane in this case.
That is my opinion and we don't have to agree, I see where you are coming from and respect your view. Mine is just different is all. Polite dialogue, and debate is healthy even when we agree to disagree.

 

[sambastang]

Geez. It's like a modern-day West Side Story. Stans versus Staches...

 

[milepost1]

What is wrong with us that we blame a company for our individual recklessness?

I can tape the blade guard of my circular saw back to provide quicker cuts. Now when It's done contacting the 2x4 the uncovered spinning blade cuts my arm off, it's the companies fault?

I can "Fool the Fasten Seatbelt reminder by buckling it, then getting in the car thus sitting on it and when I smash into a object, I fly unrestrained through the windshield and die, it's the car companies fault?

People need to own their stupidity period and the rest of us need to call them out!

i agree 100% All the hoops to override a safety system is not a machines or design fault. Trying to make a company figure out how to prevent everything someone can do to override safety features is a little unfair. it is not "simple" to make a tesla driverless. tesla and other companies try to make it so consumers cant do stupid things, but consumers still do.
Even the MME have folks trying to figure out how to make it "hands free" even though all the systems in place to prevent it. Ex. if engaging adaptive cruise control, lane centering, is it MME's design flaw if you decide to take hands of wheel and text and car runs into something?
if you read all the warning labels or safety features on different products they are there because some idiot tried to do that.

 

[milepost1]

how many of us set cruise control over the speed limit? it wont be long until car makers are forced to not allow a car, especially in hands free mode, to be set over the speed limit. i can already see it, someone setting it to fast car unable to stop in time and driver blaming car maker for allowing you to set the car to fast.

 

[trutolife27]

 

[Mirak]

Is it possible that there was a person driving the car and that the person escaped and is now being protected by the other family members. I only ask because this seems like something that could be very possible yet not discussed.

Highly unlikely. Negated by the witnesses and all the doors being closed at the crash scene. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but you’re getting into second-shooter-on-the-grassy-knoll territory.

The more likely, innocent explanation for why nobody was found in the drivers seat is that the driver door was stuck shut and the driver crawled into the back to try to escape before succumbing to the smoke.

The state of the driver seatbelt found at the crash site will pretty much definitively tell us who was where at the moment of impact. If the driver seatbelt buckle was found engaged, then it means nobody was occupying that seat because even if the driver unbuckled and crawled into the rear to escape, he never would have rebuckled the belt. If the buckle was found unengaged, then autopilot couldn’t have been running.

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