Texas Tesla Tragedy

[pt19713]

Again, don't let the media be your source of info. It's way too soon to blame human error or vehicle error. But, this is a Ford forum so I don't much other than the typical responses. Just a few more to add to the ignore list.

Sponsored

 

[DBC]

It's not a perfect fix because even if your eyes are on the road, if the car locks, someone runs in front of you, you've got to grab the wheel, get your foot on the brake, etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by "locks", but no system is going to work 100% of the time. However, monitoring the driver so that they aren't asleep or in the backseat would address my concern about safety.

The problem for Tesla is that it wants to sell a system for $10K which isn't in the same league as what you can get for $600 from Ford. So it has to hype the capabilities, resulting in a huge disconnect between what Tesla suggests it can do and what it can do.

 

[Murse-In-Airy]

We save 27,000 lives / year because the roads become massively safer. Do we, after every accident, still run to the newspapers like we do a plane crash or hold the manufacturer's liable for every accident when in the background they're saving thousands of lives?

If we treat cars anything like we do medicine, then yes we run screaming. We blame manufacturers. We sue everybody. That one-in-a-million case that nobody could have predicted must be blamed on someone.

My mother-in-law still refuses seat belts because she “had a friend that would have died had they been held in their seat when they got t-bones on the drivers side.” We, as a society, don’t believe in the science or the statistics. We demand perfection at every turn. Saving 999,999 people won’t be good enough because the media will sensationalize that one out of million for likes, clicks, views, and echo chamber reinforcement.

And one who believes Tesla, or any other car, is ready for full self driving is an idiot. But I do believe when it is time, we will be safer. Auto accidents will decrease but the great news networks will still blame everyone they can.

 

[EVS]

The other side is that two people drove themselves into the ocean a few nights back and killed themselves. They weren't self-driving although perhaps self-medicating. Things like this happen all the time (I spent a brief stint in the data side of EMS). Honestly, I'm not even sure it's newsworthy. Also, maybe a Tesla doesn't drive them into the ocean because it slams on the brakes but a Tesla in the ocean would be national news.

Self driving, and what Tesla is offering is vaporware, will still have accidents, people will get hurt, but what if it's at 10% of the rate of today's accidents? We save 27,000 lives / year because the roads become massively safer. Do we, after every accident, still run to the newspapers like we do a plane crash or hold the manufacturer's liable for every accident when in the background they're saving thousands of lives?

There is a big difference between someone driving into the ocean and the software in the cars driving people into the ocean. Let's take the example of Intel's floating point bug. Will it be news if I made an incorrect floating point computation? No, because I'm just one of billions and everyone else may still do it right based on their capabilities. But Intel FPU bug was big news because it affected a lot of computers and the engineers needed to understand it to fix it. That's why many of these accidents (almost two dozens of them) are being investigated by NHTSA and NTSB; to understand the systemic issues.

So yes, every Autopliot accident should be news. At least for now, it is doing the double duty of busting the myths of Tesla's FSD capabilities and hopefully will alert more people to not try such foolhardy things. It is an antidote to the lies Musk keeps spreading on twitter.

BTW, what you described about braking is AEB (automatic emergency braking), nothing to do with self-driving. An L2 driver's assist system in combination with the driver is logically safer, as is adaptive headlights or the newer type of infra red vision in some Mercedes cars. But the CEO claiming its FSD is SAFER THAN HUMANS BY ITSELF is the misleading and fraudulent part. Not having a driver monitoring system in place after years of accidents is the criminal part.

It's not just me blaming Tesla partially. NTSB also faulted Tesla partially for the Mountain view Model X crash.

My frustration is really split equally among:
1. Elon Musk & Tesla for hyping, misleading and lying about its self-driving capabilities.
2. The system here in the US where no agency has the power to reign him in. Or the agencies willfully being complicit with this.
3. The Tesla drivers who are still falling for these lies about FSD capabilities and trying these experiments on public roads, endangering themselves and others.

I'm afraid this time also, NHTSA and NTSB will do the usual charade of opening another investigation and once public's memory has faded, they will shove it under the rug with no consequences.

 

[Mirak]

Mine is that I'm driving but can barely reach the brake pedal. I can push it slightly, with my toes, but not far enough to get the amount of braking needed.

I sometimes have a very similar dream to that. Mine is where I’m pushing down as hard as I can on the brake pedal, and the car is slowing down but not very much and I can’t bring it to a full stop and I’m just thinking, “if I can’t get this car stopped I’m gonna hit something.” I think these dreams are in the same vein of trying to run away from something but not being able to move fast.

 

[timbop]

So yes, every Autopliot accident should be news. At least for now, it is doing the double duty of busting the myths of Tesla's FSD capabilities and hopefully will alert more people to not try such foolhardy things. It is an antidote to the lies Musk keeps spreading on twitter.

Absolutely correct, but I think there's a subtlety here that needs to be recognized. People do stupid things, and young people are predisposed to be reckless because that is simply how their brains are wired. It's a part of the maturation process and it can't be changed.

So here's the distinction with 2 equally dangerous misuses of products:

• Taking a can of spray paint, spraying it into a paper bag and inhaling the contents to get high. Neither the paper bag manufacturer nor the paint manufacturer are liable - the paint manufacturer explicitly states the steps to keep you from inhaling the vapors and goes out of their way to tell you to follow them. The paper bag manufacturer labels their product as for storing sandwiches or other items. There is no paint labeled "sniff this" or "this gives a great high", and no paper bag brand has a brand name of "high times".
• Doing stupid things like putting ankle weights on the steering wheel and getting in the back seat while on "autopilot". Tesla IS liable here. They label their product as "FULL SELF DRIVING", and the CEO constantly clamors about how their cars are a month away from achieving autonomous driving, and decries that robotaxi fleets are "almost ready". The fact that in the fine print they say "don't try this at home" or "drivers have to always be ready just in case this perfected technology makes an unlikely mistake" is clearly interpreted as "well our lawyers made us say that, so you don't really need to worry about it" - followed by a "wink wink nudge nudge" from the "great leader".

I really hope this stupidity ends, but the only way that happens is if the expectations are changed by brutal honesty from the CEO. That isn't going to happen, because he would lose billions - and nothing is more important than his status on "the list".

 

[Mirak]

The problem for Tesla is that it wants to sell a system for $10K which isn't in the same league as what you can get for $600 from Ford. So it has to hype the capabilities, resulting in a huge disconnect between what Tesla suggests it can do and what it can do.

To be fair, the Tesla FSD is in many ways much more advanced than “BlueCruise.” It just doesn’t have “hands free” bit.

 

[macchiaz-o]

To be fair, the Tesla FSD is in many ways much more advanced than “BlueCruise.” It just doesn’t have “hands free” bit.

Likewise, Co-Pilot 360 is in many ways more advanced than Tesla "FSD."

 

[kdryden99]

I read the article and they did mention that Tesla recommends that the car should just be left alone to burn out. I don't think that is really reasonable but I wonder if the fire department was trained for this purpose. Also I think FSD should just be banned across the board until all cars have achieved a certain level of safety, security, and accuracy. I really believe that it should be an all or nothing option meaning either all cars have it or none. This would limit the vaporware and also reduce the stupidity of everyone from the manufacturer to the driver.
I tip my hat to Tesla for pushing EV's but I think no manufacturer should release an incomplete version of FSD whether it's GM, Ford or Tesla until it really is idiot proof.

 

[DBC]

To be fair, the Tesla FSD is in many ways much more advanced than “BlueCruise.” It just doesn’t have “hands free” bit.

To be fair, Tesla's system doesn't work. To be a bit more serious, it's hard to evaluate a system which purports to be more advanced but which doesn't work. Objectively not having a system is better than a system that doesn't work, so it's hard to see how this would be "more advanced".

 

[trutolife27]

Feel bad for the familys. Just sad all the way around.

 

[Mirak]

Likewise, Co-Pilot 360 is in many ways more advanced than Tesla "FSD."

Serious question: how so (aside from eye sensors)?

 

[Maquis]

In a bit of irony, Elon tweeted Saturday something to the effect that his auto pilot is "approaching 10,000 times safer" than human drivers.

 

[Mark IV]

I think Tesla, or more directly, Elon Musk has created a problem.

I have a friend who went to school in South Africa with Elon and knew him pretty well. When I asked what he was like then, the answer was "he was the same asshole he is today, just without the money". Read that as you wish but having read his biography it's pretty obvious he thinks his views are superior to anyone else's and has a very limited respect and tolerance for government regulations. I might agree some are pretty stupid but we must unfortunately base regulations on the fact that the one resource we will never run out of IS stupid people.

Sponsored