The network matters for any update

[JoeDimwit]

This is an interesting article to read. My question, and I’m going to try to look into this when I get home tonight, is does the Mach-E stay connected to my home network all the time, or does it disconnect when it turns off? Because, without knowing when the updates are going to be sent, and BlueCruise Is undoubtedly gonna be huge, we need to know how to make sure the car has access to the network. And if the car needs to be on or plugged in for a large update to take place, that would be good to know.

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[EVready]

So my question is: what is the connectivity between network and car? WiFi only?

If so can you change the download speed by moving modem closer to car?

 

[crownmountain]

Good article but your table graphic math is off.

1000 / (15x.125) = 533 seconds or 8.88 minutes, not 8 hours.

fixed

 

[breeves002]

The way OTA updates work I have documented here and I encourage you to read it as it answers some of the biggest issues people have with OTAs. https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/ota-updates-technical-info.4923/

The largest software suite on the Mach E is the IPMA which is the computer that does all of the driver assist (lane centering, blue cruise, adaptive cruise, lane assist, BLIS, etc). That update file is currently 2-3gb in size. On a slower wifi network that will take a while to download, but it doesn't have to download in one sitting. The entire car (not including map data) is probably less than 15gb of software. I could add it up if I really cared enough.

When Ford rolls out the update for bluecruise you'll likely see the IPMA update in the ~3gb range, CMR update ~250mb, possibly other modules like the PSCM or PCM/BECM/SOBDA/B/C as well, and all of those are smaller 100mb ish updates.

The GWM takes the update in from either cell or wifi then does the update. Updates are quick for anything connected over ethernet or FD CAN. So the IPMA, APIM, IPC, or TCU (it may do its own updates, I'm not sure) all are connected over "ethernet" a 2 wire bus up to 1gbps throughput. Once the GWM has downloaded a large update file, maybe over a matter of days, it can then quickly copy the file to the IPMA or IPC/APIM/TCU and update it. These updates are full flash and replace OR what is called ABA swap where the module can continue to run and do its job until it reboots then it takes the new update live. This helps especially with large updates that have to go over slower CAN networks for more critical items, like the ABS for example. Though I doubt that is a big update file.

So basically, they've thought about most of these things. Downloads can take multiple days if they need to, and larger update files to critical modules can be applied while the vehicle is in use - just when it is restarted the update actually takes effect. Also critical updates can be downloaded via the cell modem if Ford decides it is necessary.

Ethernet is fast - 1gbps from the GWM to those modules. FD-CAN can be up to 10mbps which is fast for CAN. Modules on that bus also will have fairly quick updates considering they are usually in the 100-200mb range for most modules. HS-CAN is a max of 512kbps which is why dealer updates are so slow. That is the fastest they can flash onto the car with a VCM dealer scan tool and FDRS. MS-CAN is even slower at 128kbps maximum. OTA updates can be faster than a dealer applied update for the FD-CAN/Ethernet modules.

A little long winded but some info.

 

[breeves002]

This has been an issue for years. Especially at smaller dealers. The service department gets hand me down computers that sales is done with and they send someone to Best Buy to buy a cheap wireless router for the shop. Modern vehicle service requires higher end laptops and enterprise grade internet and WiFi. Good luck convincing dealership management/ownership.

You really don't. Old crappy laptops are fine for FDRS, and you don't need great internet. Max speed on a dealer update with a VCM is currently 512kbps and 9/10 times they'll have faster internet than that already.

One would think the cars with OTA should have a dedicated storage space for downloads that can be resumed and when downloaded are verified and installed. This is behind the scene and the owner should not care if it take 2 days and 5 resumes to download. As long as the hash check is right you are good. Most everything you update or install is downloaded first and then installed. The install taking 8 days may be inconvenient.

They do. It is called the gateway module. It is also a network switch for the 5 can networks and ethernet.

So my question is: what is the connectivity between network and car? WiFi only?

If so can you change the download speed by moving modem closer to car?

Wifi or cellular. Ford just decides if they want to pay for the data to have an update downloaded via cell.

Changing the download speed depends on how much you're getting from Fords servers and your internet along with the signal strength/quality to the car.

 

[benk016]

Also a note in my experience downloading files from Ford's servers, some days it goes very fast, and other days it seems throttled. I've even had them drop connections if I had downloaded too many files.

Every car downloading an update could cause it to throttle.

 

[BMT1071]

You really don't. Old crappy laptops are fine for FDRS, and you don't need great internet. Max speed on a dealer update with a VCM is currently 512kbps and 9/10 times they'll have faster internet than that already.

That's interesting. GM IT requirements mandate newer/faster equipment and we definitely noticed a difference in performance once we finally got new hardware.

 

[EVready]

Based on what was previously posted, my guess is that the better the hw, the faster the download...just saying : )

 

[Shayne]

The way OTA updates work I have documented here and I encourage you to read it as it answers some of the biggest issues people have with OTAs. https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/ota-updates-technical-info.4923/

The largest software suite on the Mach E is the IPMA which is the computer that does all of the driver assist (lane centering, blue cruise, adaptive cruise, lane assist, BLIS, etc). That update file is currently 2-3gb in size. On a slower wifi network that will take a while to download, but it doesn't have to download in one sitting. The entire car (not including map data) is probably less than 15gb of software. I could add it up if I really cared enough.

When Ford rolls out the update for bluecruise you'll likely see the IPMA update in the ~3gb range, CMR update ~250mb, possibly other modules like the PSCM or PCM/BECM/SOBDA/B/C as well, and all of those are smaller 100mb ish updates.

The GWM takes the update in from either cell or wifi then does the update. Updates are quick for anything connected over ethernet or FD CAN. So the IPMA, APIM, IPC, or TCU (it may do its own updates, I'm not sure) all are connected over "ethernet" a 2 wire bus up to 1gbps throughput. Once the GWM has downloaded a large update file, maybe over a matter of days, it can then quickly copy the file to the IPMA or IPC/APIM/TCU and update it. These updates are full flash and replace OR what is called ABA swap where the module can continue to run and do its job until it reboots then it takes the new update live. This helps especially with large updates that have to go over slower CAN networks for more critical items, like the ABS for example. Though I doubt that is a big update file.

So basically, they've thought about most of these things. Downloads can take multiple days if they need to, and larger update files to critical modules can be applied while the vehicle is in use - just when it is restarted the update actually takes effect. Also critical updates can be downloaded via the cell modem if Ford decides it is necessary.

Ethernet is fast - 1gbps from the GWM to those modules. FD-CAN can be up to 10mbps which is fast for CAN. Modules on that bus also will have fairly quick updates considering they are usually in the 100-200mb range for most modules. HS-CAN is a max of 512kbps which is why dealer updates are so slow. That is the fastest they can flash onto the car with a VCM dealer scan tool and FDRS. MS-CAN is even slower at 128kbps maximum. OTA updates can be faster than a dealer applied update for the FD-CAN/Ethernet modules.

A little long winded but some info.

Thanks good info.

I will trust that ford's mme has enough cpu and write speeds that install will not take 8 days .

Makes all the individual modules that some have said are a negative a bit of a positive for updates as you do not need to download 13 gigs every time. It may also be easier on replacement costs if one goes bad? Possible that sometimes it helps to split a big system into a bunch of little ones. What that ideal numbers is for an EV I have no idea.

Do you know how big the sync OS is? We assume it is updatable?

I would like a usb thumb drive upgrade option but I do not currently see this in the interface. Possible it searches that port when you access the update screen but I have had nothing to plug in it would recognize? Do you know if the mme is usb upgradable?

Also a note in my experience downloading files from Ford's servers, some days it goes very fast, and other days it seems throttled. I've even had them drop connections if I had downloaded too many files.

Every car downloading an update could cause it to throttle.

That's may be why they are sending ota updates out in waves and it is not just to frustrate many here . That is a upload problem at Fords end not a download problem of the owner. Don't need to bring it in for them to upgrade that. Of course you make your servers faster it all works faster. I have felt with FP that I would not be adverse to Ford speeding up their network.

Based on what was previously posted, my guess is that the better the hw, the faster the download...just saying : )

It all boils down to a couple of copper wires coming into your home and how much the other end (IPS) gives you. My hardware is not the weak link here and I am guessing neither is my new computer on wheels. Your IPS throttles you and as benk016 noted so can ford. It is their hardware and nothing we can do about that.

 

[breeves002]

Thanks good info.

I will trust that ford's mme has enough cpu and write speeds that install will not take 8 days .

Makes all the individual modules that some have said are a negative a bit of a positive for updates as you do not need to download 13 gigs every time. It may also be easier on replacement costs if one goes bad? Possible that sometimes it helps to split a big system into a bunch of little ones. What that ideal numbers is for an EV I have no idea.

Do you know how big the sync OS is? We assume it is updatable?

I would like a usb thumb drive upgrade option but I do not currently see this in the interface. Possible it searches that port when you access the update screen but I have had nothing to plug in it would recognize? Do you know if the mme is usb upgradable?

You just need a fast enough write speed on the large modules. The ABA update method really makes this not matter though as you can drive the car while it is updating.

Sync 4 I'm not 100% sure but likely less than 4gb not including map data.

You can use USB thumb drives to update any ethernet connected module though Ford has to either give you the updates or you download them with FDRS. That includes the APIM, IPC, TCU, GWM, and IPMA. Ford does this to speed up dealer update processes where you're rate limited to 512kbps with Fords VCM.

 

[crownmountain]

So my question is: what is the connectivity between network and car? WiFi only?

If so can you change the download speed by moving modem closer to car?

LTE modem built into the car and in the case of the Mach-E connected to the AT&T cell network. And then WiFi as well.

 

[crownmountain]

The way OTA updates work I have documented here and I encourage you to read it as it answers some of the biggest issues people have with OTAs. https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/ota-updates-technical-info.4923/

The largest software suite on the Mach E is the IPMA which is the computer that does all of the driver assist (lane centering, blue cruise, adaptive cruise, lane assist, BLIS, etc). That update file is currently 2-3gb in size. On a slower wifi network that will take a while to download, but it doesn't have to download in one sitting. The entire car (not including map data) is probably less than 15gb of software. I could add it up if I really cared enough.

When Ford rolls out the update for bluecruise you'll likely see the IPMA update in the ~3gb range, CMR update ~250mb, possibly other modules like the PSCM or PCM/BECM/SOBDA/B/C as well, and all of those are smaller 100mb ish updates.

The GWM takes the update in from either cell or wifi then does the update. Updates are quick for anything connected over ethernet or FD CAN. So the IPMA, APIM, IPC, or TCU (it may do its own updates, I'm not sure) all are connected over "ethernet" a 2 wire bus up to 1gbps throughput. Once the GWM has downloaded a large update file, maybe over a matter of days, it can then quickly copy the file to the IPMA or IPC/APIM/TCU and update it. These updates are full flash and replace OR what is called ABA swap where the module can continue to run and do its job until it reboots then it takes the new update live. This helps especially with large updates that have to go over slower CAN networks for more critical items, like the ABS for example. Though I doubt that is a big update file.

So basically, they've thought about most of these things. Downloads can take multiple days if they need to, and larger update files to critical modules can be applied while the vehicle is in use - just when it is restarted the update actually takes effect. Also critical updates can be downloaded via the cell modem if Ford decides it is necessary.

Ethernet is fast - 1gbps from the GWM to those modules. FD-CAN can be up to 10mbps which is fast for CAN. Modules on that bus also will have fairly quick updates considering they are usually in the 100-200mb range for most modules. HS-CAN is a max of 512kbps which is why dealer updates are so slow. That is the fastest they can flash onto the car with a VCM dealer scan tool and FDRS. MS-CAN is even slower at 128kbps maximum. OTA updates can be faster than a dealer applied update for the FD-CAN/Ethernet modules.

A little long winded but some info.

VERY Good info!! And you seem to confirm the issue that comes from the dealer having a slow network that is not really what it needs to be for these new systems. And more interestingly it seems you're pointing out that the dealer connection to the car is slow by design? For owners in with a poor or nonexistent home network and a dealer that will not invest in a proper network a big update will take along time. While the OTA as you document may take a while it is far more transparent, but some updates are not delivered that way. My experience anyway.

 

[breeves002]

VERY Good info!! And you seem to confirm the issue that comes from the dealer having a slow network that is not really what it needs to be for these new systems. And more interestingly it seems you're pointing out that the dealer connection to the car is slow by design? For owners in with a poor or nonexistent home network and a dealer that will not invest in a proper network a big update will take along time. While the OTA as you document may take a while it is far more transparent, but some updates are not delivered that way. My experience anyway.

Yes the dealer connection to the car is slow except for the 5 modules that can be updated via USB. 512kbps max over HS-CAN. Now in theory they could use unused OBD-II port pins to create a faster network into the car, but they'd need a new scan tool. Maybe it is in the works. I think they're going to try to just switch to all OTA to avoid this though.

Even with a very poor network, 5gb updates should be able to complete overnight. An update over 5gb is unlikely unless it is nav map data which isn't critical to be updated in a timely manner.

 

[crownmountain]

Yes the dealer connection to the car is slow except for the 5 modules that can be updated via USB. 512kbps max over HS-CAN. Now in theory they could use unused OBD-II port pins to create a faster network into the car, but they'd need a new scan tool. Maybe it is in the works. I think they're going to try to just switch to all OTA to avoid this though.

Even with a very poor network, 5gb updates should be able to complete overnight. An update over 5gb is unlikely unless it is nav map data which isn't critical to be updated in a timely manner.

I would be happy for a map update. My home address is over a year old and still not in the car map. Data updates need to come as well.

 

[breeves002]

I would be happy for a map update. My home address is over a year old and still not in the car map. Data updates need to come as well.

There actually have been map updates already. There has to be somewhere you can submit an address for correction. I think Ford is using Garmin for sync 4 so maybe request they fix it in their database and it will get updated at some point to the car.

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