Things to consider when DIY installing a wall charger / outlet

[timbop]

I didn't say they were the SAME, I said they are connected to the same bus. The ground lead is an "oh shit" connection that shouldn't ever carry current. The neutral is the same gauge and insulated because it IS used to carry current. I never intended to say differently. And yes, I am fully aware that 3 phase has 120v from the neutral to each hot but at a different point in the sine wave, thus the reason for the term "3 phase".

I was merely trying to point out what I thought was interesting. My dad was a trained electrician before he became a government bureaucrat, and when we replaced the meter pan and service panel to upgrade my service in my first house I was stunned to learn that the ground and neutral were tied together. I thought that was interesting to know.

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[timbop]

Also of note, when we changed the service panel on my first house it was because we put an addition on the house where the original service came into it. So, we had to run the service line under the crawlspace for about 20 feet. Since it was internal to the home, the requirement was for 4 conductor service line: the 2 hots, neutral, and ground- similar to when you put a subpanel in. The ground connection has to be connected to a ground spike outside the premises, thus the reason for the 4th lead.

 

[Sweetwater]

Sweetwater, were you by any chance a commercial electrician?

Do 230 volt, single phase, EV chargers require 2 hot wires, plus a neutral wire, plus a ground wire?

If so, then I stand corrected. If not, then there is nothing wrong with the disconnect from Home Depot.

Yes IBEW. You can use that disconnect. I was wrong. I am using a
3Pole disconnect. This will disconnect all the conductors.
You need the 2 hots and 1 neutral + ground. The disconnect
will give you peace of mind that you can be safe if needed
in an emergency. Other people here want to "save a buck"
it is not worth it. Be safe you are doing it correctly.

 

[Sweetwater]

single phase does not include the neutral, just 2 hots and a ground so no need for the neutral on a hardwired EVSE. Some would argue that putting in a nema 14-50 you SHOULD still have the neutral, but for every EVSE I've seen there is no connection to the neutral pin.

And for information, the ground and neutral are electrically the same; they are both connected to the same bus in the service panel.

You are wrong. The 14-50 recp requires a neutral. The cord you plug
in to it is 4 wires. My Tesla Roadster required the neutral.

 

[CHeil402]

Great explanation, both of you.

And happy to hear I did this correctly. I installed a load center in my garage about 15 years ago and read the NEC at the public library while working through that... But definitely didn't understand everything. (Nor do I remember much now.)

Looks like my secondary load center has a fiber board to the right of the neutral bus/bar, which I assume is there to help prevent accidental ground loops, per your explanation.

Correct! Your main panel should have neutral tied to ground at one point and one point only to bond the two. Then any subpanels must keep the ground and neutral separate.

 

[timbop]

You are wrong. The 14-50 recp requires a neutral. The cord you plug
in to it is 4 wires. My Tesla Roadster required the neutral.

OK, good to know. I did run the neutral to mine

 

[CHeil402]

I didn't say they were the SAME, I said they are connected to the same bus. The ground lead is an "oh shit" connection that shouldn't ever carry current. The neutral is the same gauge and insulated because it IS used to carry current. I never intended to say differently. And yes, I am fully aware that 3 phase has 120v from the neutral to each hot but at a different point in the sine wave, thus the reason for the term "3 phase".

I was merely trying to point out what I thought was interesting. My dad was a trained electrician before he became a government bureaucrat, and when we replaced the meter pan and service panel to upgrade my service in my first house I was stunned to learn that the ground and neutral were tied together. I thought that was interesting to know.

Sounds good, just wanted to clarify that there is a difference. It is interesting (that's why I chose to be an electrical engineer after all) they are tied together, just need to be sure you understand why before suggesting connections to others.

Also, everything I've mentioned here is only for split phase, not three phase. The difference between neutral and hot is more complicated in three phase depending on the configuration such as delta vs wye.

My only intent is to make sure that people that might use this as a guide have accurate information.

 

[timbop]

Sounds good, just wanted to clarify that there is a difference. It is interesting (that's why I chose to be an electrical engineer after all) they are tied together, just need to be sure you understand why before suggesting connections to others.

Also, everything I've mentioned here is only for split phase, not three phase. The difference between neutral and hot is more complicated in three phase depending on the configuration such as delta vs wye.

My only intent is to make sure that people that might use this as a guide have accurate information.

fair enough. When my dad started putting the neutrals and grounds onto the same bus I thought for sure he was putting me on; it still seems weird to me 33 years later.

 

[Sweetwater]

I hope all of you have picked up some knowledge of electric.
If you are not sure "Don't do it". The disconnect discussion should
be done now. Install it for "Pease of mind" and safety. Check with your
local Inspec dept. if it is required by them. DONE.
Now who does not know the rest of the install ? As wire and breaker size.
Type of wire ? How to run it. Conduit or romex ? Amps equipment is good for ?
And last that Inspectors will look for : Is it UL listed.

 

[ClaudeMach-E]

not exactly true which is only 3 pin connecto

If you're hardwiring an EVSE then you would need to connect it according to the installation manual of the EVSE. If it needs 120 V for internal operation (for smart functions) then you need the neutral. But as you point out, many don't need it. However, a NEMA 14-50 outlet MUST have the neutral. Any appliance that uses a NEMA 14-50 outlet may be counting on the neutral and might need it. Otherwise, there are 240 V outlets that specifically don't include the neutral.

However, ground and neutral are not at all the same thing. While they may be at the same electrical potential they are not the same. Otherwise, again, why would there be NEMA outlets with and without neutral?



@janitorjim is absolutely correct. While neutral and ground are tied together, this is for bonding purposes. Your ground and neutral need to be at the same potential but for safety grounding. Technically, grounding is never needed for anything other than safety. The reason you tie them at one point, and only one point, is so there is no complete circuit to ground unless there is a fault. If you start connecting them at multiple places, you'll create ground loops which are bad.

Your'e talking of the Nema 6-50 here which is only a 3 pin connector and that his why people might be confuse. But you'll get 240V 40Amp out of it with a 50Amp breaker the same has with a Nema 14-50 plug.

 

[Sweetwater]

Your'e talking of the Nema 6-50 here which is only a 3 pin connector and that his why people might be confuse. But you'll get 240V 40Amp out of it with a 50Amp breaker the same has with a Nema 14-50 plug.

Correct. But I think the Ford charger does NOT come with that
type of cord to plug into it.

 

[ClaudeMach-E]

Correct. But I think the Ford charger does NOT come with that
type of cord to plug into it.

The reason being that the Ford charger is a 48Amp capable unit so it must have a 60Amp circuit breaker and does not come with any cord, it has to be hardwired.

 

[CHeil402]

The reason being that the Ford charger is a 48Amp capable unit so it must have a 60Amp circuit breaker and does not come with any cord, it has to be hardwired.

I believe he meant the Ford mobile charger which only comes with a NEMA 5-15 and 14-50 plug option.

 

[CHeil402]

I hope all of you have picked up some knowledge of electric.
If you are not sure "Don't do it". The disconnect discussion should
be done now. Install it for "Pease of mind" and safety. Check with your
local Inspec dept. if it is required by them. DONE.
Now who does not know the rest of the install ? As wire and breaker size.
Type of wire ? How to run it. Conduit or romex ? Amps equipment is good for ?
And last that Inspectors will look for : Is it UL listed.

I'm a full proponent of both learning and not doing your own electrical work unless you're very confident and competent about it. Bad plumbing causes damage, bad wiring kills.

That being said, a disconnect generally is not required. The argument about lock out/tag out wouldn't be unique to an EV charger as working on a standard 120 V outlet can just as easily kill you and there aren't disconnect requirements for those. You can certainly add it if you want (Tesla recommends against it on their manual), but not a requirement for 60 A or less with split phase.

 

[janitorjim]

I didn't say they were the SAME, I said they are connected to the same bus. The ground lead is an "oh shit" connection that shouldn't ever carry current. The neutral is the same gauge and insulated because it IS used to carry current. I never intended to say differently. And yes, I am fully aware that 3 phase has 120v from the neutral to each hot but at a different point in the sine wave, thus the reason for the term "3 phase".

I was merely trying to point out what I thought was interesting. My dad was a trained electrician before he became a government bureaucrat, and when we replaced the meter pan and service panel to upgrade my service in my first house I was stunned to learn that the ground and neutral were tied together. I thought that was interesting to know.

single phase does not include the neutral, just 2 hots and a ground so no need for the neutral on a hardwired EVSE. Some would argue that putting in a nema 14-50 you SHOULD still have the neutral, but for every EVSE I've seen there is no connection to the neutral pin.

And for information, the ground and neutral are electrically the same; they are both connected to the same bus in the service panel.

this is the comment I was referencing (in bold) but I think the point has been proven when there is a neutral connector on a receptacle it should be NOT be excluded (underlined italic comment)

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