Filling a gas-powered vehicle can still be cheaper than charging an electric one

[dml105]

Like when I go to my office 140 miles away from my house.

I dare say, if you have a 140 mile commute, you may need a dedicated charger at your office since you NEED it to get home. Is that a possibility? Maybe a reserved spot?

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[mkhuffman]

Perhaps for you; I've only needed to charge away from home twice since getting my car in October. I rarely travel more than 100 miles in a day, and it's usually more like 15.

Perhaps I am more like the majority who count on having a car that can take them to grandma's house. Which means only early adopters are prepared for life with an EV. I am doing it, and I am still glad I got my MME, but it certainly is more troublesome than I expected. And I was well educated before I purchased it. There are many, many people who will buy an EV who are not educated and have no idea what they are getting into.

One thing though, you raise a really good point. We really won't need a DCFC on every corner like we need gas stations. We just need them on highways for people who are traveling. We need them at destinations like hotels so people can charge while staying there. We need them at grandma's house so we can charge while visiting there. I took care of grandma's house, but I still need to get there. And I cannot take care of my office location - I am dependent on others to build what I need. And then I have to fight with the a-holes of the world who think they are entitled to free stuff just because they own an EV.

So while my 140 mile office commute may be unusual, there are many others like me and a lot more of us than chargers available. When I go to my mom's house, there are three EA chargers on that route. Three. The third one I probably cannot reach on one charge at highway speeds, so really there are only two. They each have four charging stalls. Four. Four!!! Do I need to say anything else about why we have a capacity issue? If only four people in the entire state of Virginia want to charge at that EA charger at the same time I do, I will have to wait. It is a big, big problem.

 

[Red Baron]

I parked next to the last EV charging space, next to a Tesla that was fully charged. I unplugged that a-hole and connected my car. I was able to charge all day until around 4:00 PM when the slacker got off work and saw I had unplugged him. Out of spite, he unplugged me and left the cable laying on the ground next to my car.

In other words, he was going to let his car sit there all day fully charged regardless of whether or not he needed the charge. And he still thought he was wronged even though I was still charging when he unplugged me. What king of person is so selfish they think they have a right to hog a charger even if they don't need it?

Ok. Solution #2. Four parking spots per charger. Four charging cables per charger. Park and plug in your one of four cable. Your cable goes “active” when currently charging car completes charging.

 

[mkhuffman]

I want to go to the Outer Banks, but the closest DCFC is in Norfolk.

I drove my MME to Nags Head and it was not a great experience. At the beach house there is no way to get a 240V charge, so I was charging using the 120V outlet in the garage. It was just enough to keep up with the driving around we did there, but not catch up from a deficit. There are a few L2 chargers in the OBX but very few. During the summer I bet they are impossible to get on.

While there I drove to a company event at the Caps game so I went from Nags Head to DC and back in my MME. I stopped in Newport News at the Walmart, and those EA chargers are good. They will get you to Nags Head for sure, especially if you charge up past 90%. I charged to around 78% and arrived at the house with just under 30%. Which was not enough. I wish I had stayed there longer. The 120V charger could not catch up and the only way I could recover to a high enough charge to get home was using the L2 chargers at the Outlet Mall. There are only two there, but since it was off season I had no issues. In the summer? Bah. Don't even count on it.

I dare say, if you have a 140 mile commute, you may need a dedicated charger at your office since you NEED it to get home. Is that a possibility? Maybe a reserved spot?

I don't think that is possible since the parking garage is not owned by our company. Also I go there maybe twice a month so I could not justify a reserved space anyway.

For your reference it is in Crystal City, right next to the Crystal City Metro stop. The chargers are at the bottom of my elevator, and when I can get a space, it is awesome. I park, connect, and take the elevator up to my office. So amazing. Unless some a-hole is sitting there without charging, and then I am pissed off the rest of the day. ?

 

[mkhuffman]

Ok. Solution #2. Four parking spots per charger. Four charging cables per charger. Park and plug in your one of four cable. Your cable goes “active” when currently charging car completes charging.

Good idea. That would also encourage people to share who might not want to otherwise. But then there is always going to be the guy who unplugs you even though you are still charging. Following your suggestion that would happen a lot, I think.

 

[KevinS]

Perhaps I am more like the majority who count on having a car that can take them to grandma's house.

The solution is simple; move closer to Grandma. She'd appreciate seeing you more often too.

 

[Mach1E]

While those are certainly issues, I think it glosses over that these types of issues can be present now with ICE vehicles, I suggest hopping over to your local Costco filling station, especially on a weekend, and check out those lines.

Granted even a line three times as long at a Costco will move faster than the line at a SuperCharger, the main reason that Costco line exists to begin with is those people can't get gas at home, coupled with Costco usually being less expensive and having better fuel (Top Tier).

So even if those few stories exist, it isn't the norm for most owners and even people that do road trips. Channels like Out of Spec Motoring who do cross country road trips all the time have almost never run into a situation where all the stalls were full.

Plus, as I started to get to earlier, EV owners have the option to "fill up" at home, every day. So i don't need to make a weekly visit to Costco and wait in line.

The amount of time, cumulatively, that I would save with an F-150 Lightning over my current F-150 PowerBoost, which at 24+ MPG isn't the worst truck out there for fuel mileage, would completely wash away the once or twice a year I might have a long line at a charger if traveling during the holidays. Easily. No question.

Sorry, but no comparison of the lines at gas stations to the ones at DC chargers.

Even the worst line I’ve ever waited in (in Florida before an incoming hurricane) only took a few extra minutes.

Those holiday DC charger lines were hours of waiting.

And unlike gas stations, there isn’t another option right up the street.

As I showed with the articles, it hasn’t gotten any better over the years with the potential to continue to get worse (while the gas station lines should be getting shorter).

EV adoption seems to have the potential to outpace chargers.

It’s not an impossible problem, but it’s a problem worth noting.

 

[Red Baron]

Good idea. That would also encourage people to share who might not want to otherwise. But then there is always going to be the guy who unplugs you even though you are still charging. Following your suggestion that would happen a lot, I think.

It would be nice if the fast chargers had the capacity to charge multiple cars at the same time without slowing down charging at any of the attached cars.

 

[RyZt]

I parked next to the last EV charging space, next to a Tesla that was fully charged. I unplugged that a-hole and connected my car. I was able to charge all day until around 4:00 PM when the slacker got off work and saw I had unplugged him. Out of spite, he unplugged me and left the cable laying on the ground next to my car.

That Tesla driver hogging a charging spot is simply wrong. It’s not acceptable behavior. Unplugging your car is even worse.

That being said, there are more to this story than you may have realized. You may have damaged his car by unplugging the charge cable. Up until a certain OTA software update, the Tesla would try to close its charging door (but can’t because the adapter is still in there) and keep retrying until it breaks. You can find videos online. Below a Reddit discussion on this particular suicidal behavior of Tesla cars.

It’s not your fault if that Tesla car was damaged as a result of your action. I’d say Tesla is 90% responsible for bad design and the Tesla owner is 10% responsible for having their car parked in a charging spot while full. I just want to shed some light on why the Tesla owner might have been angry.

 

[Mach1E]

I parked next to the last EV charging space, next to a Tesla that was fully charged. I unplugged that a-hole and connected my car. I was able to charge all day until around 4:00 PM when the slacker got off work and saw I had unplugged him. Out of spite, he unplugged me and left the cable laying on the ground next to my car.

In other words, he was going to let his car sit there all day fully charged regardless of whether or not he needed the charge. And he still thought he was wronged even though I was still charging when he unplugged me. What king of person is so selfish they think they have a right to hog a charger even if they don't need it?

You touched his stuff. People don’t like it when you touch their stuff.

It works better when the charger companies charge you money for sitting there after fully charged.

It is a problem that charging places are also parking spots. Sometimes people need both a parking spot and a charge, and they aren’t able to come back and move their car for whatever reason.

Other than charging them $$ to disincentivize this behavior, not sure what else the fix would be.

 

[dml105]

Ok. Solution #2. Four parking spots per charger. Four charging cables per charger. Park and plug in your one of four cable. Your cable goes “active” when currently charging car completes charging.

LOVE it! I'm adding that to my Ideal EV World thread.

 

[AKgrampy]

You touched his stuff. People don’t like it when you touch their stuff.

It works better when the charger companies charge you money for sitting there after fully charged.

It is a problem that charging places are also parking spots. Sometimes people need both a parking spot and a charge, and they aren’t able to come back and move their car for whatever reason.

Other than charging them $$ to disincentivize this behavior, not sure what else the fix would be.

This got me to thinking. We had over 200 employees at the place I used to work. There was no fuel pump available on site for an employee to fuel up their ICE rigs. It is nice that some employers have placed charging stations for the few EVs that employees operate. What is going to happen though when the majority drive EV’S? There will be no cost effective way to provide all of their employees the option to charge up at work. Also you would not want employees taking breaks to go out and shuffle cars around. Just thinking this is going to be an interesting dilemma. Personally I am retired so most of my driving will be short distance and grandma’s house is a few thousand miles away so no Rapid Red trip to her house!

 

[Red Baron]

LOVE it! I'm adding that to my Ideal EV World thread.

Thanks. When I was on the IBM Corporate Technical Committee we tried to see the big picture rather than getting stuck in the weeds looking at little details.

 

[TruWrecks]

Let me just say I have a Mach on the way and for the most part I will charge at home. I have seen some comments that charging at a public charger can cost around $0.40/kWh. So let’s compare. A car that gets 33 MPG will cost $4.25 to get 33 miles right now. An EV that get 3 miles/kWh would cost $4.40 for the same distance. In cold weather the ICE will be even a better price as the mi/kWh goes down on the EV. Then on top of everything you do pay more for the EV. Maybe I am in right field but the article is essentially correct. If saving money is the only driving force and a person can’t charge at home an ICE can be cheaper. I believe there is a bigger picture than just cost for the decision to go EV though. Just my thought here and feel free to pile it on if you believe I am off base.

News Flash! No car gets the rated MPG in cold weather! Heating is just cheaper on a gas or diesel because heat is a waste product of powering the engine.

 

[Vulnox]

Sorry, but no comparison of the lines at gas stations to the ones at DC chargers.

Even the worst line I’ve ever waited in (in Florida before an incoming hurricane) only took a few extra minutes.

Those holiday DC charger lines were hours of waiting.

And unlike gas stations, there isn’t another option right up the street.

As I showed with the articles, it hasn’t gotten any better over the years with the potential to continue to get worse (while the gas station lines should be getting shorter).

EV adoption seems to have the potential to outpace chargers.

It’s not an impossible problem, but it’s a problem worth noting.

I said in my message that you quoted that there is a significant difference. And if you are just going to pull articles of long lines from the past three years, we can use this one:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nichol...s-after-pipeline-hack-photos/?sh=3381c9484e48

Those lines were all over in the South East US. That it happens at EV chargers doesn't make it the "norm" any more than the gas lines from the pipeline hack are the norm.

The EV lines are probably more of an issue in certain parts of the country than others. I am also NOT saying the EV infrastructure for charging is perfect, far from it. I think we need massive expansion and I work at Ford and during our town halls I keep pressing on our EV leaders as to why they keep saying Ford has the largest manufacturer charging network while ignoring how many of those are 50kW fast chargers or in some cases just L2 chargers.

I am simply saying that pointing to some moments in time captures of long lines at EV stations is only relevant if you acknowledge that it happens at gas pumps too. There are waaaaay more gas stations, and there needs to be more EV stations. But while I don't charge on the road much (yet) since our main road trip vehicle is the F-150, I still drive by main EV installations all the time, mainly Superchargers, and they usually just have 1-2 stalls taken up.

I personally worry less about number of installs than I do number of quality installs. Having 10 50kW chargers is going to create more line issues than have 10 150kW stations, and we need to work on education so people aren't waiting at the station until they hit 100%.

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