Senate Bill Deal to Expand EV Tax Credits (7/27/2022)

[mjs020294]

So let's say this new bill never becomes law and the old law stays in effect. And Ford's credits phase out in the next few quarters. Who actually believes they'd do an about-face and stop making Mach-Es? And Lightnings? And E-Transits? And all the other EV models in the pipeline? And stop building those battery plants?

Same for GM. And VW. And Hyundia. And all the others.

They really don't have much choice. Many countries have legislation in place phasing out ICE.

Sponsored

 

[MachTee]

The argument of who ends up benefiting the most can be made either way. I'm of the opinion that the manufacturer ends up with most of it. Back in 2018 Tesla was spamming and rushing me to order and take delivery before 2019 due to the phase out of their tax credit. 2019 comes around and they dropped prices almost right away.

And the new program being at the point of sale, I imagine the dealer will try to get a piece of it somehow. Regarding the new income requirement, will it be the dealer that does the verification? If so will you then have to supply them with your tax documents?

 

[dbsb3233]

They really don't have much choice. Many countries have legislation in place phasing out ICE.

Thus making another 10 years of these tax credits a waste of taxpayer money.

Ford knew their credits were about to expire, an they couldn't really expect there would be an extension. Yet they're solidly committed to a decade-long expansion into EV powertrains anyway. As are most other manufacturers. An extension was unnecessary.

 

[Caulk-E]

Where are the Mach-E batteries assembled?

Poland…

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/12/1...-up-mustang-mach-e-production-for-months/amp/

 

[generaltso]

Poland…

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/12/1...-up-mustang-mach-e-production-for-months/amp/

The cells are made in Poland, but are the battery packs assembled there?

 

[dbsb3233]

I haven't seen any references to how this effects PHEVs. It does say the battery size limits are removed, so does that mean PHEVs would get the full $7500 now?

Also, if someone finds an old POS EV being dumped for $4000, does that mean it's free? Or even make a profit if sold for under $4000?

 

[Caulk-E]

The cells are made in Poland, but are the battery packs assembled there?

Everything I’ve read says the Mach-E battery, not just individual cells, is made in Poland. “Made” to me would include assembling. I have yet to see any articles or posts, that says the cells are made in Poland but packs assembled in America/Mexico.

 

[Caulk-E]

I haven't seen any references to how this effects PHEVs. It does say the battery size limits are removed, so does that mean PHEVs would get the full $7500 now?

Also, if someone finds an old POS EV being dumped for $4000, does that mean it's free?

No, it means that POS EV is now $8,000 to buy.

 

[dbsb3233]

No, it means that POS EV is now $8,000 to buy.

Yeah I thought about that too.

But what about the ones even worse, that would be dumped for salvage? Seems ripe for abuse. A dealer would just "sell" it to their brother-in-law for $1 and pocket $4000 between them.

 

[generaltso]

Everything I’ve read says the Mach-E battery, not just individual cells, is made in Poland. “Made” to me would include assembling. I have yet to see any articles or posts, that says the cells are made in Poland but packs assembled in America/Mexico.

I haven‘t seen clear evidence either way, so I honestly don’t know. I also don’t know the source of the minerals that go into the cells, which will also matter for the other half of the credit.

 

[dbsb3233]

Everything I’ve read says the Mach-E battery, not just individual cells, is made in Poland. “Made” to me would include assembling. I have yet to see any articles or posts, that says the cells are made in Poland but packs assembled in America/Mexico.

That would probably change if that was really the difference in a manufacturer getting the credit (via the customer). Ford would probably have the cells shipped to Mexico and assemble the packs there instead. Even though that's probably less efficient (but that's what micromanaging causes).

 

[dbsb3233]

I haven‘t seen clear evidence either way, so I honestly don’t know. I also don’t know the source of the minerals that go into the cells, which will also matter for the other half of the credit.

If I read it right, it's usually more than just half the credit. I think it had to be 40% from approved countries to get any credit at all. Then 50% to go from that half credit to the full credit. Pretty narrow window. Seems like most would likely be all or nothing.

 

[yngwenli]

Yeah I thought about that too.

But what about the ones even worse, that would be dumped for salvage? Seems ripe for abuse. A dealer would just "sell" it to their brother-in-law for $1 and pocket $4000 between them.

I think it's only 1 time so sorta like the CA CVRP (1 car per your lifetime now), it's hard to abuse unless you go fake Id and complete fraud.

I think after following 20 pages of this, I'm probably pooped out as to whether this is right/wrong/correct/left/right/center.

Maybe we should just focus on how to get maximium benefits and share that here and just play the game of how to save the most $$ and accept our government isn't ever going to make everyone happy nor are they ever perfectly efficient. Some of this is also for climate so there is an inherent "cost" if people believes in that.

For savings, the best I've seen is maybe (there's that NJ $5k and no sales tax too that I read about here).

In CA I think someone got some a $50k MME for like $33.25k with -$7.5k fed, -$4.5k CA CVRP -$2.5k Options -$750 fuel - $750 car show - $750 model year change = $33.25k.

CVRP was 2 different tax years and since one can be retired with little income and withdraw IRAs next year for high income.

We can't control the system much, but we can control how we play the game.


Oh yeah, I didn't see it here, but what about those BMW i4 and iX possibly having fire risk issues and some cars have had to stop complete/use and even charge? So HVBJB/battery/charging seems to be a problem for lots of car makers.

 

[generaltso]

Everything I’ve read says the Mach-E battery, not just individual cells, is made in Poland. “Made” to me would include assembling. I have yet to see any articles or posts, that says the cells are made in Poland but packs assembled in America/Mexico.

Looking through some old posts, there are quite a few people that say the packs are assembled at the MME plant in Mexico. But I haven‘t been able to find a trail to the evidence of that. If this bill passes, I have no doubt that it will become very public where the battery packs are assembled and where the minerals are sourced.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...engineering-friends-in-mexico.1100/post-41729

@hybrid2bev , I know that’s an old post, but do you recall where you saw that the battery packs are assembled in Cuautitlán?

 

[ab13]

I actually think that the argument "manufacturers will increase the price right away to take advantage of the higher demand created by any incentive" was more true 5-8 years ago, when Tesla didn't have any real competition. Today, if Ford jacks the price of the Mach-E, there are at least 5 other cars in the "same" category (EV6, Ioniq5, GV, ID.4, and Model Y, I could be forgetting a few. Maybe the Volvo C40 Recharge). Same thing with the F150 Lightning, Rivian is already here and a bunch more is coming.
I think the demand will explode, but the income limits, the car price limits, and the competition will control eventual abuses. Call me naive.

The biggest problem is lack of supply, if cars were just sitting in lots, then prices would be negotiable. But limited supply means bidding up the price. It will possibly be 2 years or more before there is a big number of cars off the lot.

Sponsored