Los Angeles to San Diego and back, great until we needed to charge

[phil]

I don't expect that to be 10-20 years though. I suspect we're in for a period of leapfrogging. We'll have a surge in BEV sales, then a surge in DCFC to catch up, and back and forth it will go.

I think this is too optimistic. Our country and economy are in for a long period of decline. The days of surges are coming to an end.

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[Ming]

As a seller of electricity, there is little if any incentive and there's hardly any profit in it, that's a big problem. Forcing a charging network into the EV movement by penalty isn't working and I don't blame the VW subsidiary for only doing the minimum requirements to satisfy their agreements. In reality car manufactures need to buy out these charging operators, close the system, make it proprietary and integrate it into their business of selling cars....similar to Tesla.

I don't think each manufacturer having its own charging network is a good solution. Instead, they should all contribute to a charging infrastructure fund (say $100 per year for each EV sold) to support the non-Tesla DCFC network.

 

[dbsb3233]

Yes, they are and that's where the EV's really shine, due to convenient and reliable home charging. A plug-in hybrid works great that reason too with the benefit that you don't have to worry at all in terms of charging when on road trips. This is reason why Tesla took their supercharger infrastructure very serious and integrated it into their business of selling cars...Tesla had knowledge that for widespread adoption you need to make road trip charger as seamless as possible. They also knew that this doesn't work as a third party because selling electricity is very low margin if even that. I just don't see a any quick fix for third parties selling DC fast charging....it's a mess and end users really don't want to wait around in a parking lot for an hour to charge, only adding to their misery. When the novelty factor wanes that will wear them down even more.

As a seller of electricity, there is little if any incentive and there's hardly any profit in it, that's a big problem. Forcing a charging network into the EV movement by penalty isn't working and I don't blame the VW subsidiary for only doing the minimum requirements to satisfy their agreements. In reality car manufactures need to buy out these charging operators, close the system, make it proprietary and integrate it into their business of selling cars....similar to Tesla.

Tesla had no choice but to subsidize a charging network from car sales though. EVs were 100% of their business. They couldn't just keep selling ICE cars to survive and thrive while gradually easing into a few EV models like legacy makers could. If Tesla didn't spend a bundle building a charging network, and fast, their whole business probably would have collapsed.

After the growing pains and huge expense, Tesla claims Supercharging is now profitable. Not sure I believe them, but it does suggest that when enough CCS EVs hit the roads, it might at least get close too. If charging is priced right, that is. Prices will surely need to go up, and all this "free charging" insanity done away with.

A single manufacturer standard and 3rd party charging is the logical approach (just like the gas model), but that will take more time since the very survival of legacy manufacturers is not at stake like it was for Tesla without a DCFC network.

This will all take a quantum leap forward when Tesla starts to offer CCS charging in the US too. That's probably coming soon.

 

[Phil Martin]

I don't think each manufacturer having its own charging network is a good solution. Instead, they should all contribute to a charging infrastructure fund (say $100 per year for each EV sold) to support the non-Tesla DCFC network.

A closed system that is installed, maintained, and operated by the vehicle manufacturer or a consortium would have avoided this current mess, that I see no way out of.

 

[ARK]

I think this is too optimistic. Our country and economy are in for a long period of decline. The days of surges are coming to an end.

There appears to be a lot of money aimed at making electric vehicles a success, I wouldn’t be so pessimistic.

My thought is that perhaps we will see manufacturers kicking more money to these DCFC stations if most locations remain unprofitable. They could probably do it by just pricing cars a bit higher, kind of how a certain amount of future warranty claims are always expected and built into the price, and just sending that money to EA or other networks.

 

[RickMachE]

I think this is too optimistic. Our country and economy are in for a long period of decline. The days of surges are coming to an end.

Couldn't disagree more.

 

[RickMachE]

Yeah, my wife and I decided to forgo an EV for now. We'll wait a few years to see if this gets resolved. maybe it doesn't, who knows, but this isn't worth the stress when out on a road trip when we're suppose to be having fun. Maybe the EV craze will die off by then too.

I've noticed even the staunchest EV supporters are starting to cave.

No, it won't die off. EVs will be the dominant vehicles for sale by 2030 if not sooner.

 

[RMoore]

I'm afraid the situation is only going to get worse. The number of EVs is growing faster than the charging infrastructure. I'm going to keep one ICE SUV for long range travels and use EV for local driving. That's likely to be a necessity for the next 10-20 years until either the infrastructure catches up or EVs boost the highway range to over 500 miles so that you don't need to charge on the road.

Yep, not giving up up the minivan anytime soon!

 

[RMoore]

If something is wrong you can call EA agent and they can reboot remotely the station for you.

This is certainly a good feature but I have to scratch my head and wonder why the system is set up in a way where it requires someone to call about a faulty unit. You would think they should have the ability to constantly monitor the state of all chargers and if their software detects a need to reboot it would do so automatically. That won’t fix the ones that someone has taken a baseball bat to but they should have a system in place to automatically handle the software glitches.

 

[phil]

There appears to be a lot of money aimed at making electric vehicles a success, I wouldn’t be so pessimistic.

My thought is that perhaps we will see manufacturers kicking more money to these DCFC stations if most locations remain unprofitable. They could probably do it by just pricing cars a bit higher, kind of how a certain amount of future warranty claims are always expected and built into the price, and just sending that money to EA or other networks.

I hope you are right. But money for luxuries can dry up quickly when people have trouble holding jobs and paying rent.

 

[mkhuffman]

I hope you are right. But money for luxuries can dry up quickly when people have trouble holding jobs and paying rent.

As much as Rick hates it, I agree with him again. But happily for him, I think we probably disagree on the reason.

I think capitalism will make the pain short lived. I have been posting about the pain that is here, and certain to get worse. But I think it is a three year problem at best. And that is because every single car company is going full in with BEVs, and they have a huge stake in their success. They have invested multiple billions of dollars into the BEV future, and if people refuse to buy because they cannot charge? The car companies care. A lot.

And I do think BEVs are the future of automotive transportation. No, I know they are. Not because of some environmental BS, but because they are better in just about every way you can measure.

As we have been discussing, range and charging on trips are the current big issues. That will be solved. I am 100% sure it will be. It will be solved with a better DCFC charging network, and longer range cars. And more destination chargers.

As TimCO has said, and I agree with him, L2 destination chargers are a better solution than more DCFC stations. Yes we need more DCFC stations, but if we can charge at our destination without stopping before getting there, we don't need any DCFC stations. That's why longer range vehicles are needed - to avoid those irritating DCFC stations.

Anyway, because profit is to be made by selling more BEVs, and because they will eventually be cheaper than ICE vehicles to make, they are the future. And because there is huge investment in producing the vehicles, the car companies need, NEED a good charging infrastructure. So as long as government isn't in the way, they will do it. And do it well.

Until then it will be painful. I will continue to drive the crap out of my car, and avoid as many DCFC stations as possible.

 

[phil]

I think capitalism will make the pain short lived.

It would, if we still had capitalism.

Our once-free economy has been distorted, constrained, and corrupted beyond recognition. I wish it were otherwise. But it's not.

 

[mkhuffman]

It would, if we still had capitalism.

Our once-free economy has been distorted, constrained, and corrupted beyond recognition. I wish it were otherwise. But it's not.

Capitalism is like the weed that pops up in your paved driveway. As much as they try to kill it, it survives.

While I agree with your sentiment, I am an optimistic person and think we are not at the "capitalism is dead" place yet. In fact, it is very hard to kill. And the car companies have invested way too much for them to let charging infrastructure kill their plans.

They are only holding back now because government is saying they will take care of the problem. But you and I know they will fail, just like they always do. And then the private companies will step in and plug the holes. Because they have to.

 

[phil]

Capitalism is like the weed that pops up in your paved driveway. As much as they try to kill it, it survives.

While I agree with your sentiment, I am an optimistic person and think we are not at the "capitalism is dead" place yet. In fact, it is very hard to kill. And the car companies have invested way too much for them to let charging infrastructure kill their plans.

They are only holding back now because government is saying they will take care of the problem. But you and I know they will fail, just like they always do. And then the private companies will step in and plug the holes. Because they have to.

I envy you your optimism, and hope it is justified.

Freedom is indeed hard to kill. Perhaps there will be EV speakeasies with black market fast chargers in our future.

 

[1969Camaro]

I think it will take even longer than that five years I'll see where we are and base a EV purchase at that time. These things to fix themselves overnight and I'm not spending $70-80K on a car only to get pissed off while on road trips cause of constant charging issues.

100% agree. It's a lot of $$$ to deal with many issues and be limited to where you can go. Not sure how many people want to be stuck in Quartzite AZ or Blythe AZ for 9hrs in 110+ degree heat to wait to charge. For sure you will only do that once. My long trips are on hold with the MME.

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