macchiaz-o

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Ford CEO Jim Farley speaking at today's Reuters Automotive Summit:

“We are discussing [battery] cell manufacturing. I think that’s natural as [EV] volume grows.”
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ng-making-own-batteries-for-evs-idUSKBN27T26B

Full Article:

Ford CEO says carmaker now eyes making own EV batteries

(Reuters) - Ford Motor Co F.N has reversed course and is now considering making its own battery cells as sales volumes of electric vehicles rise around the world, the automaker's top executive said on Friday.

“We are discussing (battery) cell manufacturing,” Ford’s Chief Executive Officer Jim Farley said Friday at the Reuters Automotive Summit teleconference. “I think that’s natural as (EV) volume grows.”

As recently as last July, then-CEO Jim Hackett said there was “no advantage” to Ford making its own battery cells.

In the meantime, other automakers, including General Motors Co GM.N and Tesla Inc TSLA.O, are investing billions of dollars in their own battery cell manufacturing plants to supplement production from suppliers.

Industry analysts have presented sometimes conflicting views on whether battery cell manufacturers will be able to keep up with an anticipated acceleration of demand for electric vehicles through 2025 and beyond.

While Ford's publicly announced electric vehicle production plans so far have remained relatively modest, GM and Hyundai Motor Co 005380.KS have said they plan to be building and selling one million electric vehicles a year by 2025, and Volkswagen AG VOWG_p.DE has targeted annual sales of 3 million EVs then for all its global brands.
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I'm not sure it's actually a "reverse course". Discussing it and dumping billions into doing it are very different things. At the end of the discussion they may wait until the current into R&D of alternative chemistries and form factors shakes out, at which point they might just license the best technology and then begin building their own.
 

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Ford CEO Jim Farley speaking at today's Reuters Automotive Summit:



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ng-making-own-batteries-for-evs-idUSKBN27T26B

Full Article:

Ford CEO says carmaker now eyes making own EV batteries

(Reuters) - Ford Motor Co F.N has reversed course and is now considering making its own battery cells as sales volumes of electric vehicles rise around the world, the automaker's top executive said on Friday.

“We are discussing (battery) cell manufacturing,” Ford’s Chief Executive Officer Jim Farley said Friday at the Reuters Automotive Summit teleconference. “I think that’s natural as (EV) volume grows.”

As recently as last July, then-CEO Jim Hackett said there was “no advantage” to Ford making its own battery cells.

In the meantime, other automakers, including General Motors Co GM.N and Tesla Inc TSLA.O, are investing billions of dollars in their own battery cell manufacturing plants to supplement production from suppliers.

Industry analysts have presented sometimes conflicting views on whether battery cell manufacturers will be able to keep up with an anticipated acceleration of demand for electric vehicles through 2025 and beyond.

While Ford's publicly announced electric vehicle production plans so far have remained relatively modest, GM and Hyundai Motor Co 005380.KS have said they plan to be building and selling one million electric vehicles a year by 2025, and Volkswagen AG VOWG_p.DE has targeted annual sales of 3 million EVs then for all its global brands.
Pros and cons to buying from a supplier vs building your own. And even "building your own" often just means partnering with a battery manufacturer, like Tesla does.

I think either way, Ford will be OK. There's a ton of battery factories in the pipe now. Building your own might just mean moving from one bottleneck (getting finished batteries) to another (getting raw materials).
 

rickmendes

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Pros and cons to buying from a supplier vs building your own. And even "building your own" often just means partnering with a battery manufacturer, like Tesla does.

I think either way, Ford will be OK. There's a ton of battery factories in the pipe now. Building your own might just mean moving from one bottleneck (getting finished batteries) to another (getting raw materials).
Raw materials space is getting more interesting with all of the new EVs coming out between now and 2025. Companies like Piedmont Lithium are fun to watch.
 

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I think this will help Ford make the right decision and start producing their own batteries. Their partnership with Solid Power.

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/12/20201216-solidpower.html

According to the article above 22-layer cell holds 20 Ah. Which is a 10x increase of their earlier 10 layer prototype. They are looking to increase the Ah to start the certification process in 2022 for automotive use.

These are solid state battery cells that effectively eliminate fire possibility as well as allow for faster charging. They have better energy density then any lithium ion battery out there today. 330 Wh/kg. They are hoping for 400 Wh/kg by the time they start the certification process.

They need to increase the Ah to 73 Ah if they want to match the current cells in the Mach E.

They are using basically same machinery used today to build Li-Ion cells. So now would be the time to start prepping for it.

Recap, safer, requiring less mechanisms for battery conditioning and safety. Charge faster, 50% in 15 minutes. Lighter, increasing efficiency of vehicles. Build using common machinery used today for Li-ion batteries. Finally, there is an article earlier this year form Solid Power, saying they are cheaper to make per KWh than current cells as well.

Seems like exactly what Ford needs to step up their game in the EV space. Now if they could just get all this done before the roll out the e-F150 in 2022....total GameChanger.
 
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as a long term shareholder (meaning I've lost a ton of money but slowly it's crawling back ;)), I don't know how I feel about this.

As I've said in other threads on here, I'd rather Ford focus on making cars and let battery people make batteries. I get controlling the supply line and "controlling your own destiny," I'm just not sure that this particular example is a good investment short-term or long-term.

But it looks like Ford disagrees with me and they are the experts, not me, so...
 

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I think this will help Ford make the right decision and start producing their own batteries.
I'm not convinced that's the "right decision". It may be, but this rush by some automakers to get into the battery-making business seems potentially misguided. Not sure that's where auto manufacturing expertise is best at.
 

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I think this will help Ford make the right decision and start producing their own batteries. Their partnership with Solid Power.

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/12/20201216-solidpower.html

According to the article above 22-layer cell holds 20 Ah. Which is a 10x increase of their earlier 10 layer prototype. They are looking to increase the Ah to start the certification process in 2022 for automotive use.

These are solid state battery cells that effectively eliminate fire possibility as well as allow for faster charging. They have better energy density then any lithium ion battery out there today. 330 Wh/kg. They are hoping for 400 Wh/kg by the time they start the certification process.

They need to increase the Ah to 73 Ah if they want to match the current cells in the Mach E.

They are using basically same machinery used today to build Li-Ion cells. So now would be the time to start prepping for it.

Recap, safer, requiring less mechanisms for battery conditioning and safety. Charge faster, 50% in 15 minutes. Lighter, increasing efficiency of vehicles. Build using common machinery used today for Li-ion batteries. Finally, there is an article earlier this year form Solid Power, saying they are cheaper to make per KWh than current cells as well.

Seems like exactly what Ford needs to step up their game in the EV space. Now if they could just get all this done before the roll out the e-F150 in 2022....total GameChanger.
What do you think about QuantumScape?
“These results blow away what was previously thought to be possible in a solid-state battery,” Venkat Viswanathan, battery expert and professor of materials science at Carnegie Mellon University, said in the news release. “This data shows the capability to charge to 80% capacity in 15 minutes, corresponding to an astonishingly high rate of lithium deposition of up to a micron per minute.”
https://www.barrons.com/articles/qu...st-why-that-matters-51607429029?siteid=yhoof2
 

Popeye

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What do you think about QuantumScape?
“These results blow away what was previously thought to be possible in a solid-state battery,” Venkat Viswanathan, battery expert and professor of materials science at Carnegie Mellon University, said in the news release. “This data shows the capability to charge to 80% capacity in 15 minutes, corresponding to an astonishingly high rate of lithium deposition of up to a micron per minute.”
https://www.barrons.com/articles/qu...st-why-that-matters-51607429029?siteid=yhoof2
i don’t have subscription to Barron’s. QuantumScape has been so secretive about there dev. Who knows what is truth or not. Hopefully they are not another Nikola. GM really got burned on that one.

quantumScapes timeline is about the same as SolidPowers timeline. Without knowing the details of QS tech and manufacturing process hard to tell.

But SolidPower is using already existing machinery.Which means an existing factory can be switched over more readily.

quantumscape and SolidPower seem pretty on par with each other.
First to market really will have an impact.

Also forgot, form factor. SP is using the pouch cell form factor used by almost all BEV’s not named Tesla. No clue what QS is using for a form factor.
 
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Popeye

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80% compared to 50% is a big jump in comparison. I know there is expansion factors in the (cathode or anode) sorry I forget which they talked about, is what limits the speed. Maybe QS has that figured out better.

why I like Ford building it’s own batteries is something that former CEO Hackett said in the past year. Ford can churn out an F150 every 53 seconds, They have the ability to really refine efficiency in the manufacturing process. If that know how can be applied to batteries that in itself would be a huge advantage in producing their own batteries.
 
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DBC

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As I've said in other threads on here, I'd rather Ford focus on making cars and let battery people make batteries.
...
But it looks like Ford disagrees with me and they are the experts, not me, so...
The issue is that the battery pack includes more things than just cells, and you may need to control the cells when making the pack.

For example, GM is wirelessly connecting the modules for the BMS. This eliminates the wiring, allows for real time monitoring and management, and enables cell replacement with different chemistries. I don't know for certain but it seems that for this type of integration you need to closely integrate cell and pack manufacture.

But I expect this would be a partnership like GM-LG Chem or Tesla-Panasonic rather than Ford making the cells.
 
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The issue is that the battery pack includes more things than just cells, and you may need to control the cells when making the pack.

For example, GM is wirelessly connecting the modules for the BMS. This eliminates the wiring, allows for real time monitoring and management, and enables cell replacement with different chemistries. I don't know for certain but it seems that for this type of integration you need to closely integrate cell and pack manufacture.

But I expect this would be a partnership like GM-LG Chem or Tesla-Panasonic rather than Ford making the cells.
Some of what I read about SP is that they are coming up with battery and how to manufacture it, but we’re hesitant to say they would be doing the manufacturing of them. It’s they were more apt to allow their strategic partners to do the actual manufacturing.
 

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Some of what I read about SP is that they are coming up with battery and how to manufacture it, but we’re hesitant to say they would be doing the manufacturing of them. It’s they were more apt to allow their strategic partners to do the actual manufacturing.
For sure. Licensing IP is always higher return with less risk than doing the hard and dirty work of manufacturing.

I also think that established battery manufacturers are working on solid state as well. It's an obvious step. Plus many think Toyota is the leader -- it has been talking about solid state batteries for a decade.
 

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For sure. Licensing IP is always higher return with less risk than doing the hard and dirty work of manufacturing.

I also think that established battery manufacturers are working on solid state as well. It's an obvious step. Plus many think Toyota is the leader -- it has been talking about solid state batteries for a decade.
They are supposedly revealing a solid state battery EV next year. With production starting in 2022 or 23 I forget which. They promised an SSB for Olympic vehicles before that was cancelled. But they didn’t have the tech done.
There are different types of solid state batteries. QS and SP are working on ASSB which are All Solid State Battery.

I believe, and I could be wrong it has been a while since I saw the info. But there’s is more of a hybrid of organic and inorganic materials.
 

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I just read some more on the Toyota battery. Seems like they are having trouble with the anode exapansion. They have an ETA for production of 2025. SP is looking to start selling its ASSB’s in 2021. But automotive versions not until 2026. I really think first to market is going to have a big advantage. So SP might have to love you their timeline if they want to won’t this fight. Not sure about QS and Samsung. I think it is a tight race. Toyota has the backing of the Japanese government, which is about $19 billion.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/toyota-solid-state-battery-ev-2021/
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